Predestination

[Buttons*]

i can say it all day but i what i really need to do is type it.... you'd have to be in the same room to hear me say it

yes, yes, get technical and avoid the OP

Look, predestination isnt possible. You can make yourself feel more comfortable and trick yourself into believing that things happen because some supreme being already said it would occur as such, but you're just lying to yourself. Im not saying that you cant believe and have faith in whatever you want, but its different than saying that our lives are already made for us.. and on top of that given choices? That's illogical in every sense!

 

[mr.guy]

That's illogical in every sense!

Why's that?

 

[Buttons*]

He knows general random events, but he leaves up the responses to us. It would be predestination if our responses where dictated by HaShem.

.... then he's not all knowing? Then he's not a supreme god?

 

[michel]

I disagree. What would make good "good" if it had no opposite. And what is the absence of good, anyway? What is the absence of light? Darkness. That may be more obvious a comparison, but it's the same principle entirely.[/size]

The absence of good ? Separation from God.

 

[Buttons*]

Why's that?

oh whatever you could care less about this topic you rabble-rouser

 

[mr.guy]

oh whatever you could care less about this topic you rabble-rouser

That's an unfair way to treat an endangered species. My survival may be dependant on endless explanations of metaphysical (im)possibilities...wheather i care for them or not.

 

[Buttons*]

That's an unfair way to treat an endangered species. My survival may be dependant on endless explanations of metaphysical (im)possibilities...wheather i care for them or not.

yeah, well, make up your own conclusions

 

[Super Universe]

yes, yes, get technical and avoid the OP

Look, predestination isnt possible. You can make yourself feel more comfortable and trick yourself into believing that things happen because some supreme being already said it would occur as such, but you're just lying to yourself. Im not saying that you cant believe and have faith in whatever you want, but its different than saying that our lives are already made for us.. and on top of that given choices? That's illogical in every sense!

The Supreme Being does not say that some random thing should occur but when free will creatures are given more and more choice random things are going to happen.

Random **** happens!

 

[steelblue75]

yes, yes, get technical and avoid the OP

Look, predestination isnt possible. You can make yourself feel more comfortable and trick yourself into believing that things happen because some supreme being already said it would occur as such, but you're just lying to yourself. Im not saying that you cant believe and have faith in whatever you want, but its different than saying that our lives are already made for us.. and on top of that given choices? That's illogical in every sense!

for one i dont believe in predestination or free will... and second this is a religious debate board.... what part of religion is logical? the belief in some higher power that has a plan for you and loves you so much that he would put you here on earth to suffer and die because you will never believe in the teachings of his religion and he knows this because he knows all and sees all..... im still not seeing how you can choose to oppose that will..... religion is nothing more than people trying to cope with the inevitability of death and that their life had some purpose and that it doesnt just END there is something more.... and free will is just one of mans tools to make himself seem like he is master of his own destiny but you cannot have free will and an all powerful being that knows what you are going to do before your parents even got a twinkle in their eyes to me that is illogical in every sense and i am unable to warp my thinking enough to make them both possible at the same time

 

[mr.guy]

The Supreme Being does not say that some random thing should occur but when free will creatures are given more and more choice random things are going to happen.

So what ratio of autonomy would be too challenging to the appropriation of "supremacy"?

 

[Super Universe]

What is lasting in the universe? Anything human? Anything random or accidental?

There is only one everlasting thing from the chaotic universe and that is the end result of it all.

God knows you before you were born because He created you as a child then sent you out to grow. No real harm can come to you because it is not possible.

But then you do not see yourself as a child of God here to experience and grow and return to God as an ascending being wise in the ways of the universe.

Instead you choose to believe that you are a human. If that is your choice, so be it, then that is all you will ever have been to the universe.

 

[mr.guy]

for one i dont believe in predestination or free will... and second this is a religious debate board.... what part of religion is logical?

Withing it's own presuppositions, plenty. Don't dictate what are potentially reasonable (and, amazingly, permissable) means of argument for your own convenience.

religion is nothing more than people trying to cope with the inevitability of death and that their life had some purpose and that it doesnt just END there is something more....

Good to know there's a scholar among us.

...but you cannot have free will and an all powerful being that knows what you are going to do before your parents even got a twinkle in their eyes

WHY?

to me that is illogical in every sense

Now we can use logic as a "personalized" interface. What precepts on logic "to you" make god and autonomy "illogical"?

 

[steelblue75]

Withing it's own presuppositions, plenty. Don't dictate what are potentially reasonable (and, amazingly, permissable) means of argument for your own convenience.

Good to know there's a scholar among us.

WHY?

Now we can use logic as a "personalized" interface. What precepts on logic "to you" make god and autonomy "illogical"?

did you even read what i was replying to? or did you just read my reply? i stated i dont believe in either free will or predestination and stated my reasons for not believing so... i thought that was one of the aspects of debate.. and i already stated that nothing about religion is logical its all based on the supernatural should i get the definition of supernatural?

from answers.com

1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
2. Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.
3. Of or relating to a deity.
4. Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.
5. Of or relating to the miraculous

as you see..... it says nothing about logic... now lets look at religion aslo from answers.com

1. 1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
   2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

again nothing about logic only belief and as i stated before belief is illogical w ithout proof

 

[steelblue75]

What is lasting in the universe? Anything human? Anything random or accidental?

There is only one everlasting thing from the chaotic universe and that is the end result of it all.

God knows you before you were born because He created you as a child then sent you out to grow. No real harm can come to you because it is not possible.

But then you do not see yourself as a child of God here to experience and grow and return to God as an ascending being wise in the ways of the universe.

Instead you choose to believe that you are a human. If that is your choice, so be it, then that is all you will ever have been to the universe.

ok i can live with that.... im happy being human its who and what i am i dont need to think that i will achieve god like status to make my life worth something.... heres the secret of life.... live it and stop worring about what comes after because in that case happiness will only be reached by its end

 

[Super Universe]

Live it and stop worrying? Then why are you here on a Religious Forum? Is this how you live it without worry?

Do you really think you can cause someone to lose faith? If you do then they did not really have any to begin with.

What will you both do then? Join forces and go around destroying?

Since you like to tell others what to do why don't you do this instead:

Create.

 

[steelblue75]

Live it and stop worrying? Then why are you here on a Religious Forum? Is this how you live it without worry?

Do you really think you can cause someone to lose faith? If you do then they did not really have any to begin with.

What will you both do then? Join forces and go around destroying?

Since you like to tell others what to do why don't you do this instead:

Create.

ok unless im wrong.... this is a debate board right? i mean stop me if im wrong and views on predestination were asked for by the thread starter but because i dont believe my opinion doesnt matter or is destructive? im here to debate and to debate you must have opposing views otherwise its a conversation and its not religious discussion board otherwise i wouldnt be here thats not what that board would be for

besides im not worried im ok with the fact that after this im worm food.. its ok i get that some people fear death and cant bear the fact that there may not be anything aft er t his im not tryin to change anyones mind im debating the topic that was posted ... what are you here for? to look for people who dont believe as you and degrade them for it? try to make what they say seem totally out of sync? i havent done that once i have only replied and answered what people have said to me... as for telling others what to do...... since when is suggesting you live life to its fullest and enjoying what you have ordering anyone to do anything? it was a suggestion not an order *takes away supers high horse so he can mingle with us lowly quacking dogs*

 

[mr.guy]

i stated i dont believe in either free will or predestination and stated my reasons for not believing so...

Yes...that they were unquestionably illogical.

i thought that was one of the aspects of debate.. and i already stated that nothing about religion is logical its all based on the supernatural should i get the definition of supernatural?

The definition of "cookie" makes no claim or plea to logic. Am i to suppose that they're illogical as well?

Oops! you're first dictionary diving was to support "supernaturalism", not "religion". Religion need not be based on what is supernatural; as a cultural or meditative expression, any given religion can be devoid of ontology. That is partialy reflected in some the definitions you've cited for "religion".

...i stated before belief is illogical without proof

I state otherwise. Who wins?

 

[Super Universe]

The only people who fear death are the ones who are afraid of being worm food.

There are people who know, not just believe, what comes next.

Why am I here? To connect with people, learn from the interesting ones, and pass on what I know.

For me, what do I care of this temporary form? It has it's use but like a vehicle it wears out and will be discarded.

You think I feel that I am better because I know that God exists? Do you think all who believe in God think they are superior to you? If so then this feeling is something within yourself. I did not cause it to happen to you nor did any believer. Maybe this feeling also caused you to find a religious forum?

 

[steelblue75]

:sarcastic

Yes...that they were unquestionably illogical.

The definition of "cookie" makes no claim or plea to logic. Am i to suppose that they're illogical as well?

Oops! you're first dictionary diving was to support "supernaturalism", not "religion". Religion need not be based on what is supernatural; as a cultural or meditative expression, any given religion can be devoid of ontology. That is partialy reflected in some the definitions you've cited for "religion".

I state otherwise. Who wins?

What did i say specifically that was illogical instead of lumping it all together.... and the second definition was of religion... i never said they always MUST be supernatural... although that is the most widely used definition of the word religion... you asked what made them illogical...

from answers.com again the definition of logic (clearest one i could find anyways which is cited from wikipedia)

Logic, from Classical Greek λόγος (logos), originally meaning the word, or what is spoken, (but coming to mean thought or reason) is most often said to be the study of criteria for the evaluation of arguments, although the exact definition of logic is a matter of controversy among philosophers. However the subject is grounded, the task of the logician is the same: to advance an account of valid and fallacious inference to allow one to distinguish good from bad arguments.

evaluation of arguments... determining between fallacy and validity... all I am saying is there is no validity in religion because it is all based on faith alone .. IMO.. that means you must have something solid to base the argument on... without that it is not logical... faith is not a reason... it is a belief... a belief is not proof and it is not based on logical thought...

and nobody wins... thats not the point... the point is the debate ... thats all

 

[steelblue75]

The only people who fear death are the ones who are afraid of being worm food.

There are people who know, not just believe, what comes next.

Why am I here? To connect with people, learn from the interesting ones, and pass on what I know.

For me, what do I care of this temporary form? It has it's use but like a vehicle it wears out and will be discarded.

You think I feel that I am better because I know that God exists? Do you think all who believe in God think they are superior to you? If so then this feeling is something within yourself. I did not cause it to happen to you nor did any believer. Maybe this feeling also caused you to find a religious forum?

just curious.... have you ever been dead?... if not you dont know what comes after... you believe what comes after.... and again... how do you know G-d exists... you believe he does... knowing and believing are two totally different critters altogether.

and no i dont think everyone who believes in god thinks they are better than me... although you seem to... but they all think i am wrong because i dont believe the same way... thats fine... this isnt about whos right or wrong....and actually it was exactly "believers" that "made me feel this way"... you are a believer.... and you portray yourself as superior to others.... so yes... you caused it.... and no... i came to this forum on someones recommendation because there is good debate to be had.

im not looking for religion and im not trying to change anyone elses mind... i just like to debate the topics presented... this is not a religious education forum either... so coming here to learn from people is a rather odd statement to make but okay...and you are passing on what you believe... and thats okay too... but you dont have to degrade and talk down to others to pass that on :tuna: