Predestination

[gmelrod]

Since we got far afield I thought I would start a new thread to deal with the issue of predestination that came up in another thread. Here is my post with a quote from the one that spured it.

Originally Posted by bible truth
Great question! God determined the end and provided the means to accompish His end. God chose the foolishness of preaching of Christ crucified to save His elect (Romans 1:16- Romans chapter 9 and chapter 10). Keep reading the Bible and you might find out you are one of His elect. - BT

Since you are predestined to go to heaven why would there be any reason to obey the laws of God or man? There is no sin you could commit that would get you removed as God's elect. But if you say that a member of the elect would never seccumb to base desires and pleasure then you deny free will. Also if you are not predestined then there is no drive to be good. No matter how good you are you cannot become one of the elect. So if you are going to hell no matter what you might as well have fun while you can. Thirdly if you are predestined there is no reason to study the bible. You are either elect or not. You will find out after your death. If you are elect then you have nothing to fear. If you are not of the elect that knowledge will not make you happy. It will ruin the good times you can have before you are sent to hell.

Romans 1:16 (NIV) I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Wait doesn't this say if I believe then I am saved. It says nothing about being pre-chosen. If I believe then I am saved. Simple. Does this verse mean somthing diffrent to you?

Romans 9:30-33
Israel's Unbelief

30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[m]

This passage seems to say that the Gentiles, even though they were not of the group that was historicly God's chosen people, were saved because they had faith, not because they were chosen, but through their faith. Israel on the other hand held fast in their posistion as chosen people and kept to doing the works of the law. But without faith, despite being God's elect, they were not saved.

Ok last one

Romans 10:9-13 (NIV)
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]

It could not be more clear for me. Everyone who calls on the same of the Lord will be saved. There is no diffrence between Jew (elect) and Gentile (the rest of us). What possible interpretation of this passage could make it seem like people who believed would not go to heaven. This is the claim of predestination. A person who does not now believe is not saved and thus not part of the elect. Once (s)he comes to faith, it it by that faith that they are saved. They become elect. But predestination by the very definition of the term tells us that we are saved or damned before birth. It is our pre destiny. It seems that the concept of predestination is unbiblical. By what interpretation of the text can it be seen as otherwise.

Ok now go!

 

[bible truth]

Since we got far afield I thought I would start a new thread to deal with the issue of predestination that came up in another thread. Here is my post with a quote from the one that spured it.



Since you are predestined to go to heaven why would there be any reason to obey the laws of God or man? There is no sin you could commit that would get you removed as God's elect. But if you say that a member of the elect would never seccumb to base desires and pleasure then you deny free will. Also if you are not predestined then there is no drive to be good. No matter how good you are you cannot become one of the elect. So if you are going to hell no matter what you might as well have fun while you can. Thirdly if you are predestined there is no reason to study the bible. You are either elect or not. You will find out after your death. If you are elect then you have nothing to fear. If you are not of the elect that knowledge will not make you happy. It will ruin the good times you can have before you are sent to hell.

Wait doesn't this say if I believe then I am saved. It says nothing about being pre-chosen. If I believe then I am saved. Simple. Does this verse mean somthing diffrent to you?


This passage seems to say that the Gentiles, even though they were not of the group that was historicly God's chosen people, were saved because they had faith, not because they were chosen, but through their faith. Israel on the other hand held fast in their posistion as chosen people and kept to doing the works of the law. But without faith, despite being God's elect, they were not saved.

Ok last one
It could not be more clear for me. Everyone who calls on the same of the Lord will be saved. There is no diffrence between Jew (elect) and Gentile (the rest of us). What possible interpretation of this passage could make it seem like people who believed would not go to heaven. This is the claim of predestination. A person who does not now believe is not saved and thus not part of the elect. Once (s)he comes to faith, it it by that faith that they are saved. They become elect. But predestination by the very definition of the term tells us that we are saved or damned before birth. It is our pre destiny. It seems that the concept of predestination is unbiblical. By what interpretation of the text can it be seen as otherwise.

Ok now go!

1. Matthew 7:21 (Whole Chapter)
   "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

1. Romans 8:29 (Whole Chapter)
   For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
2. Romans 8:30 (Whole Chapter)
   And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
3. Ephesians 1:5 (Whole Chapter)
   he [ Or sight in love. 5 He] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
4. Ephesians 1:11 (Whole Chapter)
   In him we were also chosen, [ Or were made heirs] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

 

[Bishka]

1. Matthew 7:21 (Whole Chapter)
   "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

1. Romans 8:29 (Whole Chapter)
   For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
2. Romans 8:30 (Whole Chapter)
   And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
3. Ephesians 1:5 (Whole Chapter)
   he [ Or sight in love. 5 He] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
4. Ephesians 1:11 (Whole Chapter)
   In him we were also chosen, [ Or were made heirs] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Another instance of twisted interpretation to fit the interpreters agenda. *BZZZ* Try again. Obviously you do not understand foreordination and predestination well enough to discuss this.

 

[gmelrod]

1. Matthew 7:21 (Whole Chapter)
   "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

So we need to do good works as well as have faith. Good point. Still not predestination. I can start having faith and doing good works (God's will) right now.

Here is one from the same chapter.

Matthew 7:7-9
7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

All we have to do for salvation is ask.

Romans 8:29 (Whole Chapter)

1. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
2. Romans 8:30 (Whole Chapter)
   And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

At first these do seem to support predestination but I looked at a few passages above them

Romans 8:11There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:11 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

So we have this qualification. If God's spirit lives in us then we are of one body with Christ and God's Spirit lives in those who "walk not in the flesh but in the Spirit." The question are those who walk in the Spirit the one's chosen from birth to do so or those who follow in Christ's example. Fortunetly there is an answer in the chapter.

Romans 8:5
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

So we see that those who are of the Spirit are those who mind the things of the spirit and not of the flesh. Thus it is somthing we do, not a quality we are born with. The best you could say is that a person who is predestined will never pay any mind to the flesh because of their nature. But this excludes every person except Christ (for all are in sin) and again denys free will.

1. Ephesians 1:5 (Whole Chapter)
   he [ Or sight in love. 5 He] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
2. Ephesians 1:11 (Whole Chapter)
   In him we were also chosen, [ Or were made heirs] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

You only have to read the next verse to find that these passages do not refer to devine predestination but to the working out of gods plan

Ephesians 1:12-13
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Who first trusted in Christ. after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spiris of promise. Again we see salvation preeceded by faith. It is because of their belief that the Spirit comes upon them.


The predestination that is spoken of refers to God's great plan. Even before the fall God knew that the sacrifice of his only son would be necessary. Christ's death and resurection were predestined not our individual salvation.




Predestination flaty denys the necessity of faith for salvation. There seems to be no more unbiblical statement possible. Repeatedly Jesus told people it was by their faith they were healed. People may debate the necessity of good works but very few are able to deny that those without faith will be admitted into the Father's eternal kingdom.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Predestination in the Calvinist sense is completely foreign to Christianity.

See My threads against Calvinism

 

[gmelrod]

Predestination in the Calvinist sense is completely foreign to Christianity.

See My threads against Calvinism

We may disagree on somethings. But I think here we are together.

 

[Comprehend]

Calvinism is silly and makes no sense if one has read the bible...

 

[Katzpur]

Predestination in the Calvinist sense is completely foreign to Christianity.

We may disagree on somethings. But I think here we are together.

Not only are the two of you together on this, we Latter-day Saints are with you, too.

 

[gmelrod]

Not only are the two of you together on this, we Latter-day Saints are with you, too.

Hurrah! Hugs all around. :trampo:

 

[CRB]

Calvinism is silly and makes no sense if one has read the bible...

Before my comment, a little introduction: I recently found religious forums.com and had been looking for one where there could be genuine academic debate on substantive points. So I'll chime in on occasion and try to contribute helpful material.
That said ...

While no systematic is perfect, Calvinism certainly avoids the Pelagian and Socinian tendencies of Arminian systems. And it does put the election, predestination, and foreknowledge into a coherent bundle.

 

[michel]

Of course (says he, trying to be contraversial as usual), there is Predestination and then there is predestination.........

I believe in predistination - but in as much as the same principle that applies to the theory of giving an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters - one would (so the theory goes) produce the works of Shakespeare at some time.

Sure, we have free will (well, some argue that - but I believe it); we have choice (hence our purpose - to make the choices that will help us go to heaven - be we Christians, atheists or of any other belief system).

Like a game of chess is predictable (and all the possible moves can be computed, hence computers are rather good at "playing chess" so are our lives. Better still, our character traits can be used to predict how we are likely to react to any events..........

 

[CRB]

Of course (says he, trying to be contraversial as usual), there is Predestination and then there is predestination.........

I believe in predistination - but in as much as the same principle that applies to the theory of giving an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters - one would (so the theory goes) produce the works of Shakespeare at some time.

Sure, we have free will (well, some argue that - but I believe it); we have choice (hence our purpose - to make the choices that will help us go to heaven - be we Christians, atheists or of any other belief system).

Like a game of chess is predictable (and all the possible moves can be computed, hence computers are rather good at "playing chess" so are our lives. Better still, our character traits can be used to predict how we are likely to react to any events..........

Aren't you confusing predictability with certainty?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Not only are the two of you together on this, we Latter-day Saints are with you, too.

Plus the odd Heretic and otherwise from the Anglican Communion

 

[Wandered Off]

Predestination flaty denys the necessity of faith for salvation.

It does, and justice ends up as collateral damage. The so-called "Great Commission" is a complete waste of time, since nothing you do or avoid doing will impact the predestined outcome.

CRB mentioned foreknowledge, which is closely related. Here's an old thread where we discussed that...

Would foreknowledge contradict free will?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Why on earth was this thread started... the last one on the subject is hardly dry on the paper.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Not only are the two of you together on this, we Latter-day Saints are with you, too.

Sweet!

 

[lunamoth]

Plus the odd Heretic and otherwise from the Anglican Communion

Make that two odd heretics!

 

[Slightly Perfect]

Predestination in the Calvinist sense is completely foreign to Christianity.

See My threads against Calvinism

I like those threads. Thanks for the post.

 

[CRB]

It does, and justice ends up as collateral damage. The so-called "Great Commission" is a complete waste of time, since nothing you do or avoid doing will impact the predestined outcome.

CRB mentioned foreknowledge, which is closely related. Here's an old thread where we discussed that...

Would foreknowledge contradict free will?

You've brought up a significant issue. It's extremely important and I've attempted to deal it out on philosophyforchristians.blogspot.com .
The constructs of philosophy -- determinism and freedom -- are not really suitable for describing theological concepts. Hence we have a problem, not only in how people outside of Christianity see these things discuss, but even within as philosophical theology takes hold more and more.

 

[logician]

The multiverse is ruled by chaos - no need for an omniscient god.