Preferred Pronouns and Calling People 'IT'

[whereismynotecard]

With the world slowly becoming more and more accepting of trans people and various gender identities every day, people whose personal pronouns differ from the pronouns society assigned them are in the news more often than ever. These individuals are thankfully finally being portrayed as normal, worthy human beings, which seems to be making certain other people really mad and even hostile.

I find a lot of people, who are seemingly opposed to transgender individuals for some reason, going out of their way to say the wrong pronoun on purpose, seemingly as a way of demeaning the other person's humanity. For instance, on any given article about Caitlyn Jenner (who most people will know recently transitioned from male to female) posted on facebook, you are almost guaranteed to see many comments calling her "him" or "he" and some even calling her "it." The same goes for any other well-known person who has transitioned or who identifies as a gender other than what society decided for them when they were born. People actually go out of their way to misidentify these people's gender on purpose or call them "it," as though going by a pronoun other than what they were assigned at birth now makes them no longer even worthy of being acknowledged as human.

So what I want to discuss, is why people do this. I would be particularly interested in hearing from people who would actually say something like that.

Is being female such an honor that only those born with vaginas can be called "she?" Is there any harm at all in just referring to someone by the pronoun with which they identify? If I asked to be called "he" all of a sudden even though everyone who knows me already knows me as female, is it so hard for you to just call me by the pronoun that makes me feel comfortable that you'd rather torment me and demean me instead?

I'm sure all the people who do this to other people have a reason behind it which they honestly feel justifies this behavior but I see it as nothing but bullying and hate. Let me know if you think I'm wrong. I'd love to read a logical reason for commenting on an article about a little trans teenaged girl and calling her "him" and "he" even though you know by the fact that she transitioned that the male identity along with those pronouns made her feel bad enough about herself to undergo surgery and hormone therapy, not to mention tons of bullying even before your internet hate. And I'd love to know any good reason for calling someone "it" just because you don't like their gender...

 

[SomeRandom]

I'm all for calling people him or her based on their gender, including trans people obviously.
But I think a semi backlash might be happening at the moment thanks to the "zie, zhe, etc" thing currently on Tumblr, started by those pompous SJW asshats. Granted the bullying thing may account for some of this phenomenon too.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

I think this is insane. Its like aknoweldging a person who believes hes a rat in a human body and actually respecting him. Basically a socially accepted mental illness. Yeah. "Transgender" is a very extremely rare mutation within humanity. Only 1 out of a thousand will have some sort of quality that doesnt fit the general categorization of either male or female. Schizophrenia and Bi-Polar mental illness is even more frequent at 1 out of 100 peoples. While what many progressive people actually understand and what many secular liberals are actually trying to promote is a melting and destruction of the female and male stereotypes by creating this 3rd distinction of a guy wearing lady clothes or a girl wearing man clothes and calling it "transgender". Somebody born as a boy will always remain a boy no matter how many surgeries you undergo you wont grow a full functioning vagina. Neither can a woman grow a penis. They will always stay the gender of their births or atleast a mutaliated version of it. Also: whats funny is that some men even go as far as having themselves completely castrated and having drilled a hole to have a some sort of vagina. while most of the girls who undergo sex-change always keep their vagina for some reason. hmm, interesting isnt it?

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

A person is never "it" unless they actively ask to be called "it". I don't even like calling animals "it". The gender-neutral third person pronoun (both singular and plural) is "they".

I think this is insane. Its like aknoweldging a person who believes hes a rat in a human body and actually respecting him. Basically a socially accepted mental illness

Step back and look at your own religion, which is the origin of the terms "hermaphrodite" and "androgynous". Please shed your pointless hostility, actually research this topic and start treating people decently. And by the way, mentally ill people should absolutely be socially accepted.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

A person is never "it" unless they actively ask to be called "it". I don't even like calling animals "it". The gender-neutral third person pronoun (both singular and plural) is "they".



Step back and look at your own religion, which is the origin of the terms "hermaphrodite" and "androgynous". Please shed your pointless hostility, actually research this topic and start treating people decently. And by the way, mentally ill people should absolutely be socially accepted.

It was a mythical creature. Like a centaur, satyr or a nymph. Doesnt mean that people should cut their lower body and sew on goat legs now. And many schizophrenics are actually dangerous and believe that they are followed by a higher power, such as god, demons, the state etc. this in turn makes them very paranoid at which they often, not always, exhibit dangerous and life - threatening behaivor. Do you really want to accept this? Would you want them to be locked in a psychward or let them roam free on the streets?

 

[Sees]

I only use "it" if I'm thinking an online identity isn't an actual person. Sometimes people who don't have a lot of contact and experience dealing with transgender people can be confused on what to use and shy/reluctant to ask. I think it's good to just use their name in the meantime.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

It was a mythical creature. Like a centaur, satyr or a nymph. Doesnt mean that people should cut their lower body and sew on goat legs now. And many schizophrenics are actually dangerous and believe that they are followed by a higher power, such as god, demons, the state etc. this in turn makes them very paranoid at which they often, not always, exhibit dangerous and life - threatening behaivor. Do you really want to accept this? Would you want them to be locked in a psychward or let them roam free on the streets?

Many schizophrenics are murdered or falsely put on death row due to their condition. There are more mentally ill people who are victims of violence than there are who commit violence. Mentally ill people often have to live in fear of the "sane" because of views like yours. I have friends diagnosed with psychotic conditions who are wonderful people and absolutely can function in society.

Getting back to the topic on hand, while the modern transgender community is fairly recent, concepts of "intermediate" genders or people who live as the opposite gender from their assigned sex have existed for millenia in cultures around the world. Examples include Native American two spirits, Latin American travestis, Thai kathoeys, Arab mukhannathun and Indian hijras. IIRC there are even cave paintings depicting figures with both male and female characteristics. Rejecting the validity of trans identities is not only hateful, it is historically ignorant, culturally arrogant and imperialistic.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

Many schizophrenics are murdered or falsely put on death row due to their condition. There are more mentally ill people who are victims of violence than there are who commit violence. Mentally ill people often have to live in fear of the "sane" because of views like yours. I have friends diagnosed with psychotic conditions who are wonderful people and absolutely can function in society.

Getting back to the topic on hand, while the modern transgender community is fairly recent, concepts of "intermediate" genders or people who live as the opposite gender from their assigned sex have existed for millenia in cultures around the world. Examples include Native American two spirits, Latin American travestis, Thai kathoeys, Arab mukhannathun and Indian hijras. IIRC there are even cave paintings depicting figures with both male and female characteristics. Rejecting the validity of trans identities is not only hateful, it is historically ignorant, culturally arrogant and imperialistic.

Im not "sane" myself. I have actually spend a long time in a mental ward. (Related to my "god experience"). And i know what its all about. I even know what it feels like to be paranoid. I am not saying that all schizophrenics other mentally ill people are inherantly violent or suicidal but they have these tendencies which result from a delusional perspective of the world. Check any schizophrenic forum and you will find out that they quite often behave violently and threaten their friends and relatives while psychotic and unmedicated.
Transgender is a modern term and modern idea. Relating it back to historical times leads no-where because those cultures and ideas are gone and have nothing to do with our current democratic and secular society.
Transgender promotes a culture where people can switch back and forth between sexes thus being male there and female here. This not only confuses many people but it also, as i said, is like a mental illness where you are delusional about your own mind, body and spirit. Most of the "transgender" are men who dress up as women and are homosexual. In few cases women who dress up like men and are homosexual. It is seldom to have these men undergo surgery to be "more of a woman" (mostly breasts). With female to male surgeries of the private parts almost being non-existant. As i said this is just a confusion of reality. Male want to be women because they feel that being feminine has more sexuality and to get more "love" so to speak from everybody (males and females). It is purely a selfish act and a mentally ill one at that. Whats us not to stop at people pretending to be animals and we actually respecting them as such? Since they can pretend to be a gender which they are not.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I know there are controversies about the pronouns with transgenders, but I'm here for the "it" part for now.

Humans should never be called "it" directly. They can only be called "it" in a tag game "you're it" or in unknown conditions of their presence like "who is it" if they knock a door, for example (well that covers tag games too, I guess).

Humans are specially dignified to be called "it" directly, no matter who they are.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

Male want to be women because they feel that being feminine has more sexuality and to get more "love" so to speak from everybody (males and females). It is purely a selfish act and a mentally ill one at that.

Absolutely not true. Male-assigned people identify as women because they do not feel comfortable as men, because they feel happier and more like themselves presenting female. It's actually very dangerous in many cases to be sexually active as a trans woman. I don't just mean "dangerous" as in "emotionally risk" or "might catch STDs" or something, I mean "serious threat of being assaulted or murdered if you go home with the wrong person". 20-40% of homeless youth are LGBT. The average age of homelessness for homeless trans youth is 13.5. If anything is a "delusion" here it's the claim that trans women somehow think they have it easier. Have you ever talked to a transgender person? Like, just sat down and had a friendly conversation. Somehow I seriously doubt it.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

Absolutely not true. Male-assigned people identify as women because they do not feel comfortable as men, because they feel happier and more like themselves presenting female. It's actually very dangerous in many cases to be sexually active as a trans woman. I don't just mean "dangerous" as in "emotionally risk" or "might catch STDs" or something, I mean "serious threat of being assaulted or murdered if you go home with the wrong person". 20-40% of homeless youth are LGBT. The average age of homelessness for homeless trans youth is 13.5. If anything is a "delusion" here it's the claim that trans women somehow think they have it easier. Have you ever talked to a transgender person? Like, just sat down and had a friendly conversation. Somehow I seriously doubt it.

No i havent. Ive only read some posts by a transgender man to woman person. I am sure they are nice persons, who isnt? The point is though that even schizophrenics can be nice peoples. They're still suffering from delusional thought though. No sure how reliable your 20-40% is but it only gives credance to my assertion that they become women just so that they get the benefit of being a girl. Homeless women have it easier because middle-class and rich men will pick them up and become their partners, friends, boyfriends while a rich woman would almost never date a bum.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

You clearly no absolutely no idea what it's like to be homeless. It seems like you're using your own bias and bitterness towards women as a means of judging life experiences that have nothing to do with you. I've had several homeless transgender friends and also an ex-boyfriend who was FTM trans. It is interesting how transphobes tend to ignore the existence of FTM guys.

20% statistic source: http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/lgbtq.html
40% statistic source: http://www.safehorizon.org/page/homeless-youth-statistics--facts-69.html
This one says 20%-40%: https://www.americanprogress.org/is...ransgender-youth-homelessness-by-the-numbers/

In any case, it's depressingly high. And no, I doubt that the thought of older rich men taking them in is much of a comfort to 14 year old girls living on the street.

 

[whereismynotecard]

Being transgender is not a mental illness. It's more of a biological malfunction. Like if you were born with one of your eyes covered by skin so that no one could see it and you couldn't use it, and you had surgery to get it fixed. After it was fixed, you would want people to acknowledge it instead of telling you that you had no right to alter your body to make yourself feel better. You'd want them to say, "Your eyes are lovely," rather than, "Hey, cyclops." You having a second eye now doesn't affect anyone else. It wasn't necessary to get the surgery, but you wanted to. It made you feel better about how your body functions and how you look, and to have people treat you like crap for it just isn't fair.

People who transition to a different gender, or who prefer to identify as a gender other than the one you decide they should go by do not feel as comfortable as you do with your gender, unfortunately. It's very lucky for you that you feel so confident in your body. So you clearly don't know what it's like to not feel that way, or else you'd be more understanding.

You've made so many points that I barely even want to acknowledge, but I'll go ahead... I do not think a man would transition to being female just to get someone to date him. That's ridiculous. You might want to look into everything that comes along with gender transition if you truly believe that. It's expensive, sometimes painful or uncomfortable, and comes along with tons of bullying, surgeries, and other hell. You wouldn't do it just to get a date. A gigantic sum of people won't even date someone who is trans if they are aware of it too, due to their ignorance and transphobia.

At any rate, these people are going to transition whether you like it or not, and they are going to go by "she" or "her" even if you want to believe they are still male. It's not the same as them saying "I am a rat now." It's them saying, "I am a human being still and want to be called the other gender now." Calling this person "she" isn't going to make her believe she's a rodent and is not going to be nearly as harmful as calling her "he" and thereby making her feel like ****.

 

[whereismynotecard]

While what many progressive people actually understand and what many secular liberals are actually trying to promote is a melting and destruction of the female and male stereotypes by creating this 3rd distinction of a guy wearing lady clothes or a girl wearing man clothes and calling it "transgender".

By the way, a man wearing a dress is not necessarily transgender. He's a man wearing a dress. Clothing does not turn you into a different gender, and anyone who is educated on the subject would never claim it does. I've known several men in my life who wear "female" clothing and they still identify as male. I also own clothing from the men or boys section of stores because it is what I felt like wearing, so I bought it. I didn't get reassigned to being male at the checkout. It's just clothing.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

By the way, a man wearing a dress is not necessarily transgender. He's a man wearing a dress. Clothing does not turn you into a different gender, and anyone who is educated on the subject would never claim it does. I've known several men in my life who wear "female" clothing and they still identify as male. I also own clothing from the men or boys section of stores because it is what I felt like wearing, so I bought it. I didn't get reassigned to being male at the checkout. It's just clothing.

Thats the thing though: They wear female clothes and identify as female, thus becoming a girl in your eyes.

 

[whereismynotecard]

Thats the thing though: They wear female clothes and identify as female, thus becoming a girl in your eyes.

No. They wear clothing you see as "female" clothing and still identify as male, because they just like the clothing and are also comfortable with their gender. The clothing you wear does not define your gender. It can help you feel "feminine" or "masculine" if you absorb all the stereotypes, but putting on a dress will not turn you into a woman, and no one believes that it would. Each person can choose to identify with whichever gender they choose. I could keep my vagina and wear princess dresses and glitter and identify as male. My preferred pronoun is up to me. Some men have vaginas and some women have penises.

It is very apparent to me that you do not understand this subject at all. Perhaps research it.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

Thats the thing though: They wear female clothes and identify as female, thus becoming a girl in your eyes.

Being transgender and being a transvestite or drag queen are completely separate things. Saying that being a trans woman is defined by wearing a dress is like saying that a businessman is defined by wearing a suit.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

while most of the girls who undergo sex-change always keep their vagina for some reason. hmm, interesting isnt it?

Actually, it's not really interesting, and the answer is rather mundane. Go educate yourself rather than spew ignorance.

The point is though that even schizophrenics can be nice peoples. They're still suffering from delusional thought though.

Schizophrenics do not improve or function well if their symptoms of schizophrenia guide their life. Those with gender dysphoria, on the other hand, very frequently show tremendous improvement in psychological health and well being once they have transitioned and live as their identified sex - this is in spite of the fact they face such heavy and terrible targeting and discrimination.

Transgender is a modern term and modern idea.

This is not an accurate statement. At all.

Most of the "transgender" are men who dress up as women and are homosexual.

Transgender is a broad umbrella term. But, cross dressers, those who dress and present but do not transition or take hormones or desire to "switch," are largely and mostly heterosexual.

Male want to be women because they feel that being feminine has more sexuality and to get more "love" so to speak from everybody (males and females).

This is another incorrect statement. If that is your reason for wanting to transition, there are no doctors (psychology, psychiatry, or medical) who will condone, endorse, or support a transition.

Thats the thing though: They wear female clothes and identify as female, thus becoming a girl in your eyes.

Eddie Izzard typically performs in women's clothing, but he does not identify as female.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Humans should never be called "it" directly. They can only be called "it" in a tag game "you're it" or in unknown conditions of their presence like "who is it" if they knock a door, for example (well that covers tag games too, I gue

Do you guys play tag in Saudi Arabia?

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

No. They wear clothing you see as "female" clothing and still identify as male, because they just like the clothing and are also comfortable with their gender. The clothing you wear does not define your gender. It can help you feel "feminine" or "masculine" if you absorb all the stereotypes, but putting on a dress will not turn you into a woman, and no one believes that it would. Each person can choose to identify with whichever gender they choose. I could keep my vagina and wear princess dresses and glitter and identify as male. My preferred pronoun is up to me. Some men have vaginas and some women have penises.

It is very apparent to me that you do not understand this subject at all. Perhaps research it.

The point i was making, which was lost to you, is that if they "identify as female" and wear woman clothes, in order to witness to the world their femininity, they become female in your eyes. Am i not correct? They dont need to do any surgery in order to become female, like, lets say, breast implants. All they have to do is say i am a "woman" and do something feminine to confirm it (like wear a wig, dress and make-up) and they are instantly woman all of a sudden. I believe that nothing will turn you into a woman once youre born with testicles and a penis. And nothing will turn you to be a man once youre born with a vagina and breasts. You cant replace your genetalia of birth, not even removing it and getting a hole drilled into you (in the case of a man) will turn it into a real lubricating vagina which can bear children. Not even breasts can be created as those which are given by birth, since the female breast can produce high amounts of milk and the male ones, especially after surgery cant. And if you insist that there are transgendered people who have the quality of both sexes, such as a boy body and a vagina or a girl body and a penis then i will tell you again: this is an extremely rare mutation within humanity. there are approximately 1 out of 1000 people who will have this flaw. 1 out of 100, 10 times more likely, are schizophrenic and have a mental flaw.