To repeat - so he could issue a very critical signing statement.
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President Trump Signs Sanction Bill
- Thread starter esmith
- Start date
It's all mildly interesting to watch.
Not so much Trump's behavior, but reactions to it.
So many conflicting meanings & intentions to infer.
I'm not convinced that the Russian thing is a crazy conspiracy figment of the imagination but I'm not convinced there was for sure actual Russian meddling per se although I do believe some people in the Trump administration were doing shady stuff involving Russia although not necessarily anything directly related to the Russian government.
At the very least with the emails and other stuff that has come out it appears that there was an attempt by at least some in the Trump Campaign to get Russia's aid in the election but whether or not that lead to anything I'm not sure. And it also appears that Trump wanted to possibly cover for someone after the fact when he found out.
That's why these probes and investigations are so important. Maybe a lot of people have decided to make a judgement call of either guilty or innocent before the jury is out on it and all the evidence provided, but I'm kind of holding my breath and waiting to see where things go before I make a judgement.
At the very least with the emails and other stuff that has come out it appears that there was an attempt by at least some in the Trump Campaign to get Russia's aid in the election but whether or not that lead to anything I'm not sure. And it also appears that Trump wanted to possibly cover for someone after the fact when he found out.
That's why these probes and investigations are so important. Maybe a lot of people have decided to make a judgement call of either guilty or innocent before the jury is out on it and all the evidence provided, but I'm kind of holding my breath and waiting to see where things go before I make a judgement.
Whether you personally feel you were effected, or whether you think it doesn't matter, has no bearing on the fact that it actually did occur, according to our intelligence agencies.
The vote was 419-3 in the House and 98- 2nin the Senate. Some new votes weren't going to make a difference. And it's not like we've seen Trump have much legislative success or rapport with his party's Congressmen to think he could've pulled that miracle off.
I am saying that we certainly have evidence that makes collusion seem like a distinct possibility.
Let me illustrate it from my perspective:
It's like a creationist saying that there just isn't enough evidence of evolution. You give him evidence after evidence but none of it is good enough, it doesn't prove it, it's not extraordinary enough for such an extraordinary claim. What can you say to such a guy? You know the evidence is solid. You know it points to evolution. Just because the guy claims the evidence isn't good enough doesn't mean that is so.
Now. I do not think the current case for Russian collusion is as tight as it is for evolution. I agree that the jury is still out.
But I think there are definitely some good reasons that have been presented to indicate that collusion occurred. We may not have the whole case yet, but there are legitimate pieces of the puzzle pointing that way. And claiming that there isn't anything there seems more the result of bias than it does an objective reading of the evidence.
Obviously, I doubt I'll convince you to change your mind. But I just wanted to explain why your dismissal of the evidence falls flat.
It was certainly a more lopsided vote than I thought.
But it was never evidence which either proved or disproved the claimed conspiracy.
Such things only suggest meaning to us.
You keep saying that I'm dismissing the evidence.
What I actually dismiss is your conclusion...because it lacks evidence.
Instead you offer confirmation of your own bias, ie, the pattern which you read to be a conspiracy.
I cannot say whether the conspiracy does or doesn't exist. I only speculate.
The desire to believe can be a powerful thing.
It leads the religious to see Jesus in toast.
Patterns in toast is proof for some.
Others read news, which behaves much like toast.
So you have our roles wrongly defined....you're the creationist to my agnostic.
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It only lacks evidence, to you, because you dismiss all the evidence offered. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
We have an email chain of Trump Jr, along with Kushner and Manafort, going to a meeting with a Russian lawyer who they've been informed is offering them damaging information on Clinton from the Russian government.
I'm not sure how you can say there is no evidence.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
And if there was no evidence at all, then there would have been no need for the FBI investigation and/or the selection of a special investigation because they simply are not going to waste time going on a wild-goose chase minus evidence.
All we're seeing are the Trump voters and supporters trying to find anything to excuse their screw-up.
All we're seeing are the Trump voters and supporters trying to find anything to excuse their screw-up.
Underhill
Well-Known Member
And you don't think that is exactly why he signed the bill?
I don't know too many people who believe Trump is actually working for Putin. Most of us believe Putin preferred Trump, helped him where he could and Trump was happy to take the help.
Underhill
Well-Known Member
It's clear you've moved beyond simply, 'there's no evidence, so I'm sticking with my man' to pure delusion.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Frankly, I think it likely goes well goes beyond that.
Trump was having trouble getting credit here in the States and western Europe when building Trump Towers in NYC, so he may have gone through a banking system(s) that is/are associated with the Russians, possibly including a large Russian-owned bank based in Cyprus that has a reputation for money laundering. The owner is former KGB and is a known close associate of Putin's.
If Trump got money through him, this would have been illegal, which would explain why Trump wouldn't put forth his tax returns even though he promised to do so. This also would give Putin all the needed info to play Trump like a cheap fiddle, and Trump would well know that.
Under this hypothetical scenario, if Trump doesn't dance to Putin's tune, the latter could show exactly what Trump did and how he secured the loan(s). Same could be true with Kushner, who also had borrowed money somewhere but won't divulge from whom.
Speculation, yes; but if one connects the dots in terms of Trump, some in his staff, and Kushner, it all adds up in terms of their actions and why they keep denying the Russian meetings-- until they get caught. Add to this the chummy connection whereas both Trump and Putin would gain by collaborating to denigrate Hillary, there's the "perfect storm".
BTW, according to news reports, the last lawyer for the investigation that was hired is an expert in money-fraud cases.
Stay tuned.
Underhill
Well-Known Member
That could be possible. But I'm willing to wait and see. At this point however, my synopsis is virtually inarguable fact at this point. Nobody in their right mind believes Trump didn't know about these meetings with the Russia, or that Russia wasn't helping Trump where they could (how much help that was is still somewhat unknown).
The rest of your speculation is plausible, but almost unbelievably bad if true. Even among those who dislike the man, it is a hard pill to swallow.
You claim it often, but I see no evidence proving a Trump-Putin conspiracy.
You have your reasons to believe, but nothing to sway a skeptic.
When the water stinks....yeah, he'll refuse.
If what you claim were true, ie, that the Trump-Russian conspiracy is evidenced
beyond doubt, then why do I not hear calls for impeachment on NPR? Could it be
that they too find the 'evidence' doesn't rise to the level of certainty or even probability?
Feel free to paint a convincing picture, complete with quotes from emails & a cogent
argument that Trump conspired with Russians. I'll be the jury.
How do you know Trump was aware of Putin's help.
Oh, you sooOOOoooOOOooo don't understand.
The Trump v Hillary situation is far more complicated than your simplistic view that people
who voted for him wanted him President, & support him. I didn't want him. I oppose much
of his agenda. He just didn't seem as bad as Hillary. This is not support.
Your delusion is the certainty that he conspired with Russians. You say there's evidence,
but you offer nothing which clearly supports the claim...only bias confirming news tidbits.
I chalk it up to HLDS (Hillary Loss Derangement Syndome). There's medication for that now.
A problem with Trump opponents like you is that you're fixated on personal problems which
seem ripe for attack, eg, the Russian connection. But you don't so vigorously oppose actual
policy horrors he advocates, eg, ramping up the War On Drugs. Tis almost as though you
enable him by distracting from policy efforts.
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Ditto.
But what I don't know is it Trump or is it some of his staff that were involved in that connection? It's clearly obvious that at least some of his staff was involved or they wouldn't have "forgotten" these meetings and/or out-and-out lied about not having them.
But even if it was just the staff, the "smoking gun" against Trump is that he twice admitted that he fired Comey to stop the investigation, and that's a pretty clear-cut obstruction of justice. I think they pretty much have enough on him to go for articles of impeachment now, but with the Pubs in charge of both bodies of Congress, it seems that the Dems must realize that they're gonna need a lot more than just this to dump the Trump.
That is not my claim. My claim is that there is evidence that points to collusion, making it a reasonable possibility.
Seeing that you don't even believe that the Russians waged a campaign to influence our election in favor of Trump, despite that being the conclusion of the NSA, CIA, and FBI, I don't believe that you have the capability of being an objective evaluator.
And I've acknowledged the possibility.
It seems we're talking past each other.
Let's see what investigations turn up, eh.
Underhill
Well-Known Member
I don't. But can you honestly say you believe his son, who thought this could be a game changing meeting, would not tell him?
And how anyone on this planet can say they trust a word coming out of these peoples anymore is beyond me. I think they lie more than they tell the truth. They make the political establishment look good, and that is saying something.
Underhill
Well-Known Member
Agreed.
What blows my mind is when people look at the total picture, from the lies about Russia, the obvious wrongdoing of his staff, Trumps tweets, the Comey firing, the complete lack of anything resembling cohesive policy... how can anyone still support this guy? I get it, he's draining the swamp. But he's filling it up with people that, for all intents and purposes, are bigger scum than those they 'cleaned out'.