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Pretty simple thought experiment on these family separations

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
As a social worker I can tell you most kids are upset at separation. I have a moral thought experiment here. Take a young baby away from a drug dealing, domestically violent parent about to go to jail, and the kid will cry their eyes out. Does this mean we should simply send the child to jail, or leave the drug dealer on the street, since the child is upset? What if he's a molestor, leave him on the streets? A thief? How does the crime at all effect the situation of a child not being sent to jail, and a criminal not being free. I mean sending a child to prison or leaving a criminal on the streets just because the child was upset... that's honestly way more disgusting than performing a necessary evil so a child can have a life.

It depends on how you look at it. If their only "crime" was just crossing an imaginary line in the middle of the desert, then if caught, most of the time they'd just send them back over the line. They wouldn't have to send anyone to prison for that, they don't have to separate them from their kids, and they don't have to really detain them at all.

That may not be the best solution either, but it's better than what is being done now.

Mind you, I live close to the border, and this an issue which causes a lot of consternation on both sides. I also understand why a lot of people along the border are upset about illegal border crossings. There have been a lot of problems - crime and violence along the border.

Although I've heard some ranchers down there complain that it's the Border Patrol which is a bigger problem than the migrants. They're not like typical city cops; sometimes they seem a bit too zealous and fanatical. Most of the migrants just pass through quickly; they don't want to hang around. But the Border Patrol comes in like gangbusters and wrecking people's property. I was on a Greyhound passing through the Checkpoint west of Van Horn TX, and every passenger on the bus was searched - except for the white passengers. This was the Border Patrol even back when Clinton was president, and they've never really changed. But perhaps the present Administration makes them believe that they might get away with more of this nonsense. Or maybe they just think they can do whatever they want and the president will back them.

There's also the unscrupulous "coyotes" who exploit, mistreat, and abuse the migrants and their families. Every so often, they find houses full of 20-30 or more people living in horrid conditions, living as virtual prisoners until they pay the coyotes.

But they need to target the coyotes and the businesses that employ undocumented immigrants. They're the ones who need to go to prison.

I don't see any practical reason for what is being done now (separating families). But whatever happens, it needs to stop, and both parties need to get to work and come up with a meaningful immigration reform package.

If they can do that and make it easier to travel across the border - along with ending the "war on drugs" - then there would be far less crime and violence along the border than there is now. And the Border Patrol could relax and spend their time finding lost kittens or something.

There's also international considerations here. Considering that the geopolitical situation seems to be in flux for the moment, I think we can ill afford to alienate or generate ill-will with our Latin American neighbors. Rather than focusing so much on Europe or the Middle East or East Asia, we should have been concentrating our diplomatic influence in our own region. We need to reinstate the Good Neighbor policy and work to gain the goodwill of our neighbors to the south. That's going to be an uphill battle, to be sure - but it might ultimately prove necessary for our own security and survival in a changing world.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I'm seeing a lot of distortion and false equivalences in those who are supporting the monster's evil actions. If a family is caught trying to enter the country illegally, it does not in any stretch justify tearing children away from their parents and deporting the moms leaving the kids in a concentration camp which has happened.

And unaccompanied minors during President Obama's term of office is in no way comparable to the current evil of tearing kids away from parents.

There is no depth that the current regime in power in Washington won't stoop to. But there is a tide in human affairs which ensures that the current evil will be defeated and justice will triumph.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
As a social worker I can tell you most kids are upset at separation. I have a moral thought experiment here. Take a young baby away from a drug dealing, domestically violent parent about to go to jail, and the kid will cry their eyes out. Does this mean we should simply send the child to jail, or leave the drug dealer on the street, since the child is upset? What if he's a molestor, leave him on the streets? A thief? How does the crime at all effect the situation of a child not being sent to jail, and a criminal not being free. I mean sending a child to prison or leaving a criminal on the streets just because the child was upset... that's honestly way more disgusting than performing a necessary evil so a child can have a life.
Remember that the children being separated at the boarder have already lost their home, they are coming in already traumatized. The only stable constant thing in their lives is their parent(s). And now you are going to take that away from them. And these children do not know if they will ever see their family again.

And this is not being done because it is in the best interest of the child. The administration has admitted (and denied and admitted again) that this is being done to discourage illegal immigration and asylum seekers. It is being done for political reasons. And it does not need to happen like this
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
As a social worker I can tell you most kids are upset at separation. I have a moral thought experiment here. Take a young baby away from a drug dealing, domestically violent parent about to go to jail, and the kid will cry their eyes out. Does this mean we should simply send the child to jail, or leave the drug dealer on the street, since the child is upset? What if he's a molestor, leave him on the streets? A thief? How does the crime at all effect the situation of a child not being sent to jail, and a criminal not being free. I mean sending a child to prison or leaving a criminal on the streets just because the child was upset... that's honestly way more disgusting than performing a necessary evil so a child can have a life.

First I think if I knew I would be seperated from my children upon illegal entry to a foreign country, I would not be entering that country illegally.

I looks like if you apply for asylum before entry you would not be incarcerated or separated from your children. You would be allowed entry and stay in the US while your case is being reviewed. Affirmative asylum.

If you enter illegally, then you will be detained. You can still apply for asylum but you now remain incarcerated while you case in being heard. Defensive asylum.


Unfortunately these people are being told the wrong way to go about asylum. During the Obama years, they did not incarcerate defensive asylum seekers. 90% did not show up for their court hearing so they remained in the US illegally.

Trump's zero tolerance policy chooses to incarcerate these folks while awaiting their hearing.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I do not because I draw a distinction between immoral and illegal. The parents who want to come to the USA want a better life for their children. It's the same reason my ancestors came here. To separate these families is cruel.

Ah so it immoral to make sure those coming into our country do so properly with background checks and such? I'm guessing you're one of those people who supports MS-13 and similar gangs because they're founded on illegal immifraimmi then?

Currently what US is doing is in the Hitler and Stalin territory. If you can't see that, then I pity you.

What a ****ing disgusting comparison. Now not sending kids to prison for their parents crimes is equal to mass murdering millions.

Is anyone doing anything about this in the USA? Are there big protests outside the camp, is there any kind of boycotting, anything like that?

I did, I worked directly in the field trying to restore and improve state child services. Sadly there's just not enough power pushing behind it. We need stuff like better foster cares, more case workers, and so on. But none of this would change us removing children from criminal parents about to go to prison.

There are already measures in place for citizens. Foster care, adoption, CPS, etc. It's different when people aren't citizens..

Actually policy is to find relative placement and, if they can't, foster care. This can take a VERY VERY VERY long time unfortunately due to how little the US gov cares about childcare. But the issue is childcare, not if we should send kids to prison for nothing they did.

I meant it in the other direction. I was saying, actually, "illegal" immigrants are already managing to raise plenty of children. There's no reason to believe they are unfit parents. I think the border restrictions between the USA and Latin America could do with plenty of loosening.

I have Latino heritage myself, if that's of any relevance.

EDIT: I see how the wording did sound a little alarmist, if taken out of context. I changed it.

Awesome! We want them! We just want them to go through properly like other immigrants have for generations. Have you ever heard of Ellis island by chance?

I'm seeing a lot of distortion and false equivalences in those who are supporting the monster's evil actions. If a family is caught trying to enter the country illegally, it does not in any stretch justify tearing children away from their parents and deporting the moms leaving the kids in a concentration camp which has happened.

And unaccompanied minors during President Obama's term of office is in no way comparable to the current evil of tearing kids away from parents.

There is no depth that the current regime in power in Washington won't stoop to. But there is a tide in human affairs which ensures that the current evil will be defeated and justice will triumph.

So you want us to eliminate laws which protect the country or you want children in Federal prison? Not to mention you left people seem to ignore this has been happening for generation, including under Obama. You don't care about kids, you care about Trump. Disgusting.

Remember that the children being separated at the boarder have already lost their home, they are coming in already traumatized. The only stable constant thing in their lives is their parent(s). And now you are going to take that away from them. And these children do not know if they will ever see their family again.

And this is not being done because it is in the best interest of the child. The administration has admitted (and denied and admitted again) that this is being done to discourage illegal immigration and asylum seekers. It is being done for political reasons. And it does not need to happen like this

You don't think not going to federal prison is good for children? You guys are honestly kind of a joke imo. Most removed children are traumatized, it's usually why they're removed in the country.

If you only believe in the State, then why make the examples in the OP at all?

It's about morality. I'm not as fine as the left with (1) sending kids to prison or (2) eliminating any laws that protect citizens that could lead to child removal.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
You mean the old photos and videos going around from the Obama era? Sadly child's services get very little money, and that's including for citizens. The departments are messes and they have to do what they can with the resources they have. There are two people to blame: parents for coming illegally and the states for underfunding child welfare. None ifthis effects the question of separation.

"Bad" is subjective and doesn't play a role, it's whether or not laws are broken.
Shouldn't the Trump administration have prepared for this inevitable influx of families and children being locked up when they decided on this policy? Or did they not bother to think their policies through?

Isn't this why the Bush and Obama administrations followed a "catch and release" policy, instead of this mess that the Trump administration has engaged in?


You don't see how separating kids from parents who commit illegal acts effect the issue of illegal immigration???
How about separating children from those families legally seeking asylum?
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I did, I worked directly in the field trying to restore and improve state child services. Sadly there's just not enough power pushing behind it. We need stuff like better foster cares, more case workers, and so on. But none of this would change us removing children from criminal parents about to go to prison.

People entering the USA and then claiming asylum are in no way equivalent to parents who are dealing drugs or who are committing domestic violence.

Awesome! We want them! We just want them to go through properly like other immigrants have for generations. Have you ever heard of Ellis island by chance?

Yes, I have.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Shouldn't the Trump administration have prepared for this inevitable influx of families and children being locked up when they decided on this policy? Or did they not bother to think their policies through?

Isn't this why the Bush and Obama administrations followed a "catch and release" policy, instead of this mess that the Trump administration has engaged in?


How about separating children from those families legally seeking asylum?

Couldn't say, I'm not really interested in who's fault it is. It is a bit sad and disgusting though that you only care about these children right now than the childcare problems we've been plagued with for decades. Just gross.

People entering the USA and then claiming asylum are in no way equivalent to parents who are dealing drugs or who are committing domestic violence.



Yes, I have.

Ah so crimes are only crimes if we want them to be? So what about when the left starts saying we can kill far right Republicans to save our rights or whatever, you're now fine with murder? Or is a crime a crime?
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Ah so it immoral to make sure those coming into our country do so properly with background checks and such? I'm guessing you're one of those people who supports MS-13 and similar gangs because they're founded on illegal immifraimmi then?
Yes absolutely, that is exactly what I am saying. Well done. I am a huge MS-13 fan, I have all their albums.

(If you want to discuss this issue seriously let me know)
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Couldn't say, I'm not really interested in who's fault it is.
I haven't asked who's fault it is. I'm wondering why this administration hasn't bothered preparing for this influx of children that has come as a result of their policy change. Then they want to blame the Democrats for it. It's irresponsible and ludicrous.

It is a bit sad and disgusting though that you only care about these children right now than the childcare problems we've been plagued with for decades. Just gross.
I beg your pardon? Why are you making up things? I said no such thing. I even pointed out that Obama's and Bush's policies were much more humane than this current cluster****.

Ah so crimes are only crimes if we want them to be? So what about when the left starts saying we can kill far right Republicans to save our rights or whatever, you're now fine with murder? Or is a crime a crime?
What on earth .... ?
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Yes absolutely, that is exactly what I am saying. Well done. I am a huge MS-13 fan, I have all their albums.

(If you want to discuss this issue seriously let me know)

If you have a problem with your position you need to take it up with yourself, not me. The sad fact is there's bad people out there and we have a responsibility to our citizens yo make sure those who move here are good people who will contribute. If you're opposed to that you're completely open to letting in people like MS13 waltz in. That's your problem.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Ah so crimes are only crimes if we want them to be? So what about when the left starts saying we can kill far right Republicans to save our rights or whatever, you're now fine with murder? Or is a crime a crime?

How does entering a country and claiming asylum demonstrate that your child would be better off forcibly separated from you than with you?
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
So we're now justifying brutalising children by dehumanising their parents. I wonder how many of the people happily jumping on this bandwagon have previously said things to the effect "well I wouldn't have helped persecute Jews in Europe in the '40s".
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
So we're now justifying brutalising children by dehumanising their parents. I wonder how many of the people happily jumping on this bandwagon have previously said things to the effect "well I wouldn't have helped persecute Jews in Europe in the '40s".
The ironic fact of the matter is that we're dealing with the same vile mentality that enabled fascism. I only hope that the growing outrage proves sufficient to at least render this Basket of Deplorables increasingly embarrassing and distasteful.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
The ironic fact of the matter is that we're dealing with the same vile mentality that enabled fascism. I only hope that the growing outrage proves sufficient to at least render this Basket of Deplorables increasingly embarrassing and distasteful.
Well, you'd hope. I can't help but see this in terms of "well how did the German people get talked into such monstrousness"? and "those who don't know history are condemned to repeat it".

I mean, I hope I'm wrong, but watching the situation in the US at the moment feels like watching a movie of a passenger train crash in slow motion. At this point, the train has just passed a red light, and a couple of people have seen the headlights on the tanker train carrying rocket fuel racing towards them on the same track, and have just started looking shocked. Whether there is anyone with the time or ability to do anything about it is unknown. Someone might do something about it, or we might all just have to continue to watch the trains race towards each other with el Trumpo blithely increasing the throttle while admiring himself in a mirror.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
How does entering a country and claiming asylum demonstrate that your child would be better off forcibly separated from you than with you?

How does illegal immigration count as illegal and should it be treated equal to other illegal instances? Is that really what you're asking me, like for real?
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
How does illegal immigration count as illegal and should I be treated equal to other illegal instances? Is that really what you're asking me, like for real?

Plus you know that not everyone is a honest good person right? People like sneak over kids for trafficing, kidnap family for similar reasons, etc. It's disturbing that you're not interested in curbing those acts, but hey I don't think like the left.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
The ironic fact of the matter is that we're dealing with the same vile mentality that enabled fascism. I only hope that the growing outrage proves sufficient to at least render this Basket of Deplorables increasingly embarrassing and distasteful.

You're right. Things like dynanism, cultural strength, and protection of that community play roles and fascism. We could almost say fascism is what happens when this is taken far out of control. However that doesn't make it somehow inherently wrong, only in certain contexts. We should want to keep our people safe in any way, we should want people coming in who won't just live off those working, we should be proud of who we are and we should indeed worship life in a sense.
 
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