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[PruePhillip]

I don't understand your argument then about Vietcong losing. They were part of the Vietnamese effort to throw out the US and take South Vietnam for North Vietnam.

The argument sounds fine, but Vietnam was broadly similar to Korea.
Korean war is technically still going.
Does the South want to expel America and reunite with North Korea?
Same thing with Vietnam.
In the early days there was broad support for unification. But by the
mid 60's this had evaporated as the South saw the effects of Hanoi,
the refugees which flooded out of the north and what was going on in
China with its chilling Cultural Revolution.

Consider this - Lenin's book What Is To Be Done details how a good
Communist must work within his country. Firstly, don't declare yourself
to be a Communist, secondly, take on a issue and penetrate movements.
This is what happens with Communists everywhere.
In Australia an example of this was the Communists taking control of the
Anti Nuclear movement. You weren't supporting Communists, you were
fighting all things nuclear - or so you thought.
Same with Sth Vietnam.
Nth Viet General Giap boasted he was going to "set Asia alight" and he
nearly did it. Certainly he set Cambodia and Burma alight. Couldn't do it
to Thailand though, and in that time other Asian countries were able to
take measures to prepare and stave off Communism.

 

[PruePhillip]

@PruePhillip @Shadow Wolf @Audie

If you're curious about the Vietnam war and why the US lost, then I recommend the following documentary from PBS:
The Vietnam War: A film by Ken Burns & Lynn Novick

It is probably the definitive documentary on the war. I enjoyed it...

@PruePhillip
I'm actually one of the Vietnamese political refugees from the 70s. I fled by boat in 1979 and reached America in 1980. Quite a journy...

I couldn't watch that. It's too sad.
Made me hate the political Left.

 

[Jumi]

Does the South want to expel America and reunite with North Korea?
Same thing with Vietnam.

The US was fighting for both South Korea and South Vietnam governments. South Vietnam government lost completely and disappeared from the earth, but you're saying the US won the Vietnam war? What you say makes zero sense to me. Vietcong got what they wanted and you say they lost the war.

 

[PruePhillip]

The US was fighting for both South Korea and South Vietnam governments. South Vietnam government lost completely and disappeared from the earth, but you're saying the US won the Vietnam war? What you say makes zero sense to me. Vietcong got what they wanted and you say they lost the war.

Nth Vietnam couldn't win the war, despite the huge infusion of Soviet and
Chinese arms. USA could not continue the war due to domestic opposition.
A peace deal was struck by which the USA would withdraw from Sth Viet
if Nth Viet did the same. Okay?
So later, in the process of occupying Cambodia, Nth Viet invaded Sth
Viet..
So, did America win or lose the war?
What is known is the so-called Viet Cong had little power in the new
Hanoi govt.. Sth Viet was ruled from and by the North.
The losers were the Cambodians, Sth Viets and Laotians who found
themselves under Communist rule.
About eight million people died in the process of Communising Indochina.

 

[Jumi]

Nth Vietnam couldn't win the war, despite the huge infusion of Soviet and
Chinese arms. USA could not continue the war due to domestic opposition.
A peace deal was struck by which the USA would withdraw from Sth Viet
if Nth Viet did the same. Okay?

And then North Vietnam replaced South Vietnam and became sole government of Vietnam. Afterwards Vietcong was disbanded as it did what it sought to do.

So, did America win or lose the war?

Almost everyone agrees that they lost.

What is known is the so-called Viet Cong had little power in the new
Hanoi govt.. Sth Viet was ruled from and by the North.

Vietcong was part of a Vietnamese effort to make the whole country communist. If they were part of a command chain and the ones on top of the command chain achieved it's objectives, it's quite interesting to think that they would have "lost".

The losers were the Cambodians, Sth Viets and Laotians who found
themselves under Communist rule.

Cambodia was already communist when Vietnam invaded them to stop genocide there. If anything, it was one of the rare times I will salute a Communist regime for doing the right thing while the rest of the world fiddled their thumbs.

 

[PruePhillip]

And then North Vietnam replaced South Vietnam and became sole government of Vietnam. Afterwards Vietcong was disbanded as it did what it sought to do.


Almost everyone agrees that they lost.


Vietcong was part of a Vietnamese effort to make the whole country communist. If they were part of a command chain and the ones on top of the command chain achieved it's objectives, it's quite interesting to think that they would have "lost".


Cambodia was already communist when Vietnam invaded them to stop genocide there. If anything, it was one of the rare times I will salute a Communist regime for doing the right thing while the rest of the world fiddled their thumbs.

I will say America lost the war, or more likely, lost interest in pursuing it.
The Vietcong were all but destroyed in the Tet offensive. This forced
Hanoi to pursue the war largely through their own forces.
Hanoi had a grand scheme to control all Indochina. Although they did
colonize parts of it, they couldn't do this outright because quote unquote,
they were fighting "imperialism." So Hanoi set up client Communist
governments in Cambodia and Laos. Only when the Cambodian govt
started fighting Hanoi did Hanoi "expose" its excesses to justify their
own imperialist invasion of Cambodia. Many died in Sth Vietnam after
the Communist invasion but they have not been acknowledged.

I say Hanoi "invaded" the South because this wasn't a reunification of
north and south, rather a Communist takeover. Let's be clear - South
Vietnam did not want to be Communist.

Hanoi "fiddled with its thumbs" while its former client government
killed millions. Hanoi knew what was going on quite early.

Some Vietcong were imprisoned for resisting Hanoi's control over
the South.

 

[Jumi]

Many died in Sth Vietnam after
the Communist invasion but they have not been acknowledged.

Don't know where it's not been acknowledged. We received a lot of refugees from there and they told the stories. I've also heard of it in English language sources.

I say Hanoi "invaded" the South because this wasn't a reunification of
north and south, rather a Communist takeover. Let's be clear - South
Vietnam did not want to be Communist.

Yes it was a takeover and not a good thing, but at least some sources from early on in the war showed that most of the south favored communism. It was like in some previous US interventions, a too dangerous decision to leave for democracy.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Vietnam drove out the Americans with the heroic
determination of a people who'd fought foreign invaders
for hundreds of years.

Not just that, but they had a far superior strategy. And that's the "funny" thing about war, is with a good enough strategy you don't have to be winning on the battle field to win the war. Bin Laden, for example, knew he could never militarily defeat the US, so instead he planned on dragging American into a long and expensive war to bankrupt America and tear it apart from within, similar to how he fought against Soviet Russia (which did collapse, whereas America fell into a recession and here we are very deeply divided).

 

[Audie]

Not just that, but they had a far superior strategy. And that's the "funny" thing about war, is with a good enough strategy you don't have to be winning on the battle field to win the war. Bin Laden, for example, knew he could never militarily defeat the US, so instead he planned on dragging American into a long and expensive war to bankrupt America and tear it apart from within, similar to how he fought against Soviet Russia (which did collapse, whereas America fell into a recession and here we are very deeply divided).

On that day, Mom said, "Now watch
America's disasterous overreaction."

 

[PruePhillip]

Don't know where it's not been acknowledged. We received a lot of refugees from there and they told the stories. I've also heard of it in English language sources.


Yes it was a takeover and not a good thing, but at least some sources from early on in the war showed that most of the south favored communism. It was like in some previous US interventions, a too dangerous decision to leave for democracy.

True. The key word here is "early on"
Later on, by the mid '60's, the sentiment shifted.
In part due to those who fled Nth Viet, those who suffered
Vietcong or Nth Viet atrocities and generally, just a growing
class of educated Sth Viets who saw through the lies of
Communism, particularly coming from the tens of millions
who died in China.

 

[PruePhillip]

Not just that, but they had a far superior strategy. And that's the "funny" thing about war, is with a good enough strategy you don't have to be winning on the battle field to win the war. Bin Laden, for example, knew he could never militarily defeat the US, so instead he planned on dragging American into a long and expensive war to bankrupt America and tear it apart from within, similar to how he fought against Soviet Russia (which did collapse, whereas America fell into a recession and here we are very deeply divided).

And in the case of North Vietnam, it didn't even have to win over the general population.
After its attempt to get the South to rise up against America in 1968 failed it simply
reverted to terror and force of arms. In a sense, far from being a ragtag army of jungle
fighters, North Vietnam by the 1970's had become one of the most well equipped armies
in the world. Hanoi was able to fight dirty by occupying large portions of neighboring
counties, setting up new insurgencies and terror and lying through its teeth to gain the
support of the American Left.

Recall the famous photo of the little girl, naked and running from a napalm attack?
That was at Hue 1968. All over the world. Statement: America is killing kids.
Reality: Hue was overrun by the Communists. When they were driven out the South
Viet govt found that huge trenches had been ripped into roads and thousands of civilians
were buried - some of them were buried alive. Crime: not rising up against the South.
Penalty: none. Not even a single photograph.
No photograph exists of people cheering in Saigon when the Communists, in their tanks,
burst into the city. That's because no-one cheered.

 

[PruePhillip]

On that day, Mom said, "Now watch
America's disasterous overreaction."

Originally, all America asked was for Afghanistan to hand over Bin Laden.

How would YOU have reacted to an attack on your territory where 3,000
innocent people were murdered?

 

[Audie]

Originally, all America asked was for Afghanistan to hand over Bin Laden.

How would YOU have reacted to an attack on your territory where 3,000
innocent people were murdered?

Try to think of something, like, appropriate?

 

[PruePhillip]

Try to think of something, like, appropriate?

Appropriate?
As I see it America had three options
1 - ask the Afghan govt to hand over the (largely Saudi) terrorists who killed 3,000 people
2 - invade Afghanistan and get the terrorists
3 - apologize to the terrorists for being rich, powerful and Christian

 

[Audie]

Appropriate?
As I see it America had three options
1 - ask the Afghan govt to hand over the (largely Saudi) terrorists who killed 3,000 people
2 - invade Afghanistan and get the terrorists
3 - apologize to the terrorists for being rich, powerful and Christian

The US has not specialized in wisdom
in its dealings with other nations.

 

[PruePhillip]

The US has not specialized in wisdom
in its dealings with other nations.

So maybe instead of rebuilding Japan and Germany it should have crushed them?
Instead of defending Europe against Soviet imperialism it should have let them defend themselves?
Instead of creating a nuclear umbrella for SE Asia it should have let them develop their own nukes?
Instead of restraining Israel it should just let it nuke the Arabs?
Instead of creating a sphere of prosperity in Asia by promoting trade it should put America first?
Instead of wanting other nations to be free and liberal it should just mind its own business?
Instead of stopping Iraq from gassing its people and invading neighbors it should look the other way?
Instead of challenging China in the Sth China Sea it should let them pick off countries one by one?

 

[Audie]

So maybe instead of rebuilding Japan and Germany it should have crushed them?
Instead of defending Europe against Soviet imperialism it should have let them defend themselves?
Instead of creating a nuclear umbrella for SE Asia it should have let them develop their own nukes?
Instead of restraining Israel it should just let it nuke the Arabs?
Instead of creating a sphere of prosperity in Asia by promoting trade it should put America first?
Instead of wanting other nations to be free and liberal it should just mind its own business?
Instead of stopping Iraq from gassing its people and invading neighbors it should look the other way?
Instead of challenging China in the Sth China Sea it should let them pick off countries one by one?

That is an awful lot of interpreting of a simple
statement of a rather obvious fact, re something the
US really needs to work on.

But what could value could my words have?

I am just a awful asian atheist alien. I dont even
have a AR-15.

 

[PruePhillip]

I can't argue with lack of specifics.
If you are living in America you are living in one of the most
tolerant countries on earth. I am not American but I love the
values it holds.
What country do you wish to live in?

 

[Audie]

I can talk specifics, if not tonite.
Not interested in arguing, in any case

I have a flat in NYC, and in Hong Kong.

Observing ways the USA needs to imorove is
a lot more "patriotic" than flag waving
and chanting USA. USA.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Originally, all America asked was for Afghanistan to hand over Bin Laden.

How would YOU have reacted to an attack on your territory where 3,000
innocent people were murdered?

Not by launching an unwinnable war against a vaguely defined enemy/concept and with no exit strategy that cost more than 3,000 lives.