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Pro-choice vs Abortion

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I agree with you. People should have the right not to be a parent. Absolutely.

The time to make that decision is BEFORE they engage in the activity that creates the baby.

But what if they do make the decision, and the technology fails? Happens all the time-- even the very best contraceptives can fail.

Yes-- even surgical sterilization can fail. What then?

Your sort would force an expensive baby onto a couple who were being responsible, but stuff happens, sometimes.

All because you have this religious belief that a blob of cells is magically a "baby".
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Killing has to be defined in law.

No surprise as the founder of Planned Parenthood intended to target minorities and was successful
as most Planned Parenthood clinics are near places with high minorities

Margaret Sanger was pretty clear about it, even speaking at KKK meetings and there are some interesting accounts she wrote about that.

see Planned Parenthood Founder Margaret Sanger Spoke to the Ku Klux Klan and Supported Eugenics. So Why Does the Organization Still Honor Her? - Save the Storks

On page 366 of her autobiography, Sanger described her meeting with the Klan, where she says she received additional invitations to speak with similar groups:

I accepted an invitation to talk to the women’s branch of the Ku Klux Klan…. I saw through the door dim figures parading with banners and illuminated crosses…. I was escorted to the platform, was introduced, and began to speak…. In the end, through simple illustrations I believed I had accomplished my purpose. A dozen invitations to speak to similar groups were proffered.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
When dealing with hot items, should one use protection to keep from getting burnt or not worry about getting burnt. It's the same logic. Use protection to avoid the outcome.

And be careful about terms

see article form 'save the storks!"
Planned Parenthood Founder Margaret Sanger Spoke to the Ku Klux Klan and Supported Eugenics. So Why Does the Organization Still Honor Her? - Save the Storks

What about Sanger’s outspoken support for eugenics?

While some may not be entirely familiar with the meaning of “eugenics,” it’s likely that those same people have seen it in action in various ways. Coined in the mid 1800’s by Francis Galton, the cousin of Charles Darwin, eugenics was a popular movement to create a society in which those who were considered “superior” would reproduce, while those who were deemed “inferior” would be encouraged not to reproduce.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
And be careful about terms

see article form 'save the storks!"
Planned Parenthood Founder Margaret Sanger Spoke to the Ku Klux Klan and Supported Eugenics. So Why Does the Organization Still Honor Her? - Save the Storks

What about Sanger’s outspoken support for eugenics?

While some may not be entirely familiar with the meaning of “eugenics,” it’s likely that those same people have seen it in action in various ways. Coined in the mid 1800’s by Francis Galton, the cousin of Charles Darwin, eugenics was a popular movement to create a society in which those who were considered “superior” would reproduce, while those who were deemed “inferior” would be encouraged not to reproduce.

Same thing as people say about Hitler wanting to create a fitter species. Man has tried, used, been accused of all kinds of things. It can just as easily be blamed on a god as Darwin.
After all, the perfect species would be gods, other than a god status we are all inferior right?
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Same thing as people say about Hitler wanting to create a fitter species. Man has tried, used, been accused of all kinds of things. It can just as easily be blamed on a god as Darwin.
After all, the perfect species would be gods, other than a god status we are all inferior right?

It also appears that "... there is now sufficient evidence to conclude that IA [induced abortion] is causally linked to breast cancer..." The breast cancer epidemic: 10 facts but not politically correct to say

The reality is there is a breast concern epidemic now
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
And be careful about terms

see article form 'save the storks!"
Planned Parenthood Founder Margaret Sanger Spoke to the Ku Klux Klan and Supported Eugenics. So Why Does the Organization Still Honor Her? - Save the Storks

What about Sanger’s outspoken support for eugenics?

While some may not be entirely familiar with the meaning of “eugenics,” it’s likely that those same people have seen it in action in various ways. Coined in the mid 1800’s by Francis Galton, the cousin of Charles Darwin, eugenics was a popular movement to create a society in which those who were considered “superior” would reproduce, while those who were deemed “inferior” would be encouraged not to reproduce.
Eugenics is used all the time like when were you breed animals to get the best traits, intelligence, and performance.

It was actually practiced in the US that became an actual movement involving eugenics.

America’s Hidden History: The Eugenics Movement | Learn Science at Scitable
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
But what if they do make the decision, and the technology fails? Happens all the time-- even the very best contraceptives can fail.

Yes-- even surgical sterilization can fail. What then?

Your sort would force an expensive baby onto a couple who were being responsible, but stuff happens, sometimes.

All because you have this religious belief that a blob of cells is magically a "baby".

My position on abortion has nothing to do with my religion.

It is based upon one thing: there is no magic line in the development of a human, between conception and death at old age, where SCIENCE, or medicine, says 'here is a human being,' where an instant before it was something else that could be anything else.

That 'blob of cells' is a human in a specific stage of development. It's not a baby. It's not a toddler. It's not a teenager or an adult or an old doddering septuagenarian. However, that old, doddering septuagenarian was once a blob of cells just like the one you are dismissing. We ALL went through that stage, every single one of us.

If you can show me a medical and scientific line...not a CULTURAL or "convenient because we want to be able to kill it before it gets there" line, where that human individual is something other than a human individual who will become a human adult....if it does not die first, I might listen.

If you can show me where there is any point at which that 'blob of cells' can become anything OTHER than a human adult if it isn't killed first, I might listen.

I mean...a hippopotamus, perhaps? Golden Eagle, maybe? a rock in the Grand Tetons? a zombie pigmy goat?


There is really no getting around this, and I wish you guys would at least be honest about this, at the very least. Abortion means ending the life of a human individual who, given a chance to grow, be born and live, will become a human adult. It can't become anything else.

You are killing a human being. Human....and 'being' because it is living. You are killing it BECAUSE it is a living human who will become a baby/toddler/adult, in order to keep it from doing so.

Some people are more honest about this. One of my 'history stories' is about a mob who attacked a group of Mormons at a place called Haun's Mill, killing 19 men and boys. One of those boys was 9 years old. He was dragged out from under a table, and shot in the head. The man who did it said.."nits make lice, and he would have been a Mormon when he grew up."

It is just. like. that. Abortion is a 'nits make lice' decision. You are killing a human in order to keep it from growing up, and I honestly do not see a difference between abortion and what that man did to 9 year old Sardius Smith.

No difference at all.

Culture can decide what 'person' is. Cultures have OK'd the killing of offspring from infancy to just before adulthood, at puberty or as old as 21, in some places and times. Culture's definitions and declarations are changable. The facts of science are not. So you go ahead. You show me where, in the development of a conceptus right through to birth, that instant where SCIENCE says that this little 'blob of cells' containing the DNA map of a specific human being becomes a person with a right to attempt to survive, where an instant before it was not.

Go ahead. Give it a go.

............standard disclaimer: my opinion is about those who have entered into consensual sex as adults, in full understanding that sex produces babies, and does not apply to those who are victims of rape, incest, whose lives are at grave risk because of pregnancy, or when the fetus is so badly damaged that it cannot survive outside the womb even at full term.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is no over population problem currently and it does not need to be socially engineered.

Yes, there is, just as there is a global warming problem looming large.

There is nothing to be gained in splitting the sexes as if they are in conflict with one another.

Correct, which is why feminism is about uniting the genders in social and economic opportunity.

If you want to kill an unborn baby why do you restrict it to a stage in the pregnancy. Killing is killing. Murder.

I don't want to kill babies, or fetuses even.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I personally do not believe in medicine as a way of prolonging human life for that very reason. If one's time is up one has to go. What a waste of resources to use medical facilities to save and prolong lives. I live to reality. One does preventative lifestyle measures to protect the body from illnesses, and leave the rest to God.

I was talking about medical knowledge saving people's lives that have horrible genetics. For example without modern medicine I would have died within days of birth.
 
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Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Not where I life! Fortunately for her...
It all depends on the ethical values that society engenders on men and women. If women are taught that rape associated pregnancy makes the child somewhat less of human being than a normally conceived baby then the woman will act accordingly. If the woman is taught that it does not matter and you should treat your baby as your own then the child will get all the love and attention it deserves as a human being.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
No surprise as the founder of Planned Parenthood intended to target minorities and was successful
as most Planned Parenthood clinics are near places with high minorities

Margaret Sanger was pretty clear about it, even speaking at KKK meetings and there are some interesting accounts she wrote about that.

see Planned Parenthood Founder Margaret Sanger Spoke to the Ku Klux Klan and Supported Eugenics. So Why Does the Organization Still Honor Her? - Save the Storks

On page 366 of her autobiography, Sanger described her meeting with the Klan, where she says she received additional invitations to speak with similar groups:

I accepted an invitation to talk to the women’s branch of the Ku Klux Klan…. I saw through the door dim figures parading with banners and illuminated crosses…. I was escorted to the platform, was introduced, and began to speak…. In the end, through simple illustrations I believed I had accomplished my purpose. A dozen invitations to speak to similar groups were proffered.
Hmmm.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Yes, there is, just as there is a global warming problem looming large.
If those are your perceptions you wish to do something about it. My view is that I have a life of my own and Iive it the best way possible in order to survive in dignity. That means rejecting hypothesis that do not stand to commonsense on how we should live our lives free of stress and worries, and therefore suffering.
Correct, which is why feminism is about uniting the genders in social and economic opportunity.
Feminism is the insistence of females to be independent of men, not in unification but in division of the sexes.
I don't want to kill babies, or fetuses even.
Ahimsa or non violence is an ancient Hindu philosophy that should be observed whenever possible.But to kill in order to preserve dharma is the highest form of dharma.
 
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