Pro-choice vs Abortion

[Bob the Unbeliever]

My position on abortion has nothing to do with my religion.

It is based upon one thing: there is no magic line in the development of a human, between conception and death at old age, where SCIENCE, or medicine, says 'here is a human being,' where an instant before it was something else that could be anything else.

That 'blob of cells' is a human in a specific stage of development. It's not a baby. It's not a toddler. It's not a teenager or an adult or an old doddering septuagenarian. However, that old, doddering septuagenarian was once a blob of cells just like the one you are dismissing. We ALL went through that stage, every single one of us.

If you can show me a medical and scientific line...not a CULTURAL or "convenient because we want to be able to kill it before it gets there" line, where that human individual is something other than a human individual who will become a human adult....if it does not die first, I might listen.

If you can show me where there is any point at which that 'blob of cells' can become anything OTHER than a human adult if it isn't killed first, I might listen.

I mean...a hippopotamus, perhaps? Golden Eagle, maybe? a rock in the Grand Tetons? a zombie pigmy goat?


There is really no getting around this, and I wish you guys would at least be honest about this, at the very least. Abortion means ending the life of a human individual who, given a chance to grow, be born and live, will become a human adult. It can't become anything else.

You are killing a human being. Human....and 'being' because it is living. You are killing it BECAUSE it is a living human who will become a baby/toddler/adult, in order to keep it from doing so.

Some people are more honest about this. One of my 'history stories' is about a mob who attacked a group of Mormons at a place called Haun's Mill, killing 19 men and boys. One of those boys was 9 years old. He was dragged out from under a table, and shot in the head. The man who did it said.."nits make lice, and he would have been a Mormon when he grew up."

It is just. like. that. Abortion is a 'nits make lice' decision. You are killing a human in order to keep it from growing up, and I honestly do not see a difference between abortion and what that man did to 9 year old Sardius Smith.

No difference at all.

Culture can decide what 'person' is. Cultures have OK'd the killing of offspring from infancy to just before adulthood, at puberty or as old as 21, in some places and times. Culture's definitions and declarations are changable. The facts of science are not. So you go ahead. You show me where, in the development of a conceptus right through to birth, that instant where SCIENCE says that this little 'blob of cells' containing the DNA map of a specific human being becomes a person with a right to attempt to survive, where an instant before it was not.

Go ahead. Give it a go.

............standard disclaimer: my opinion is about those who have entered into consensual sex as adults, in full understanding that sex produces babies, and does not apply to those who are victims of rape, incest, whose lives are at grave risk because of pregnancy, or when the fetus is so badly damaged that it cannot survive outside the womb even at full term.

100% of your argument can be used AGAINST your stance.

How about that?

 

[Koldo]

I agree with the logic vis a vis STDs.

But. As others have pointed out? You cannot legislate morality. To do so? Would be immoral...

Anti-abortion laws are, without exception, a question of morality.

Choosing who's morality is a question of religion.

Criminal laws are a question of morality.

 

[dianaiad]

100% of your argument can be used AGAINST your stance.

How about that?

You claim this, but you don't explain how it can be so used. Try that.

 

[dianaiad]

I agree with the logic vis a vis STDs.

But. As others have pointed out? You cannot legislate morality. To do so? Would be immoral...

Anti-abortion laws are, without exception, a question of morality.

Choosing who's morality is a question of religion.

Criminal laws are all about morality. That which is considered to be immoral (like murder or stealing or assault) is generally considered illegal. Very few systems of law make illegal those things the culture considers to be moral.

Morality is a function of culture. If culture includes religion, well then....

But if culture doesn't include religion (i.e., a deity) then the morality comes from something else.

For that matter, if there IS no deity, then morality can't possibly come from God, can it? It ALL comes from, well, people and culture.

......................you do realize, do you not, that by claiming that all morality comes from religion, you are claiming that non-believers have no morals?

I don't think you want to do that, do you?

 

[blü 2]

Erm... I am afraid that is not really what you have said. Do I need to quote your post ?

I'm doing my best with the materials you give me to work with. Your reductio fails along those lines, just not exactly like that. In matters of reproduction, you give breeding cows no choice, you give women no choice. What's the difference? Both must do as you say.

 

[Koldo]

I'm doing my best with the materials you give me to work with. Your reductio fails along those lines, just not exactly like that. In matters of reproduction, you give breeding cows no choice, you give women no choice. What's the difference? Both must do as you say.

Everything else.
Do pro-life people want to be able to buy women ? Do they want to be able to kill them whenever they feel like it to eat them ? Do they want to be able to milk them ?

Children must also do as others say. Does that mean children are also treated like cows ?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Criminal laws are a question of morality.

No. They are not even close. Morality requires thought. Laws cannot control thought-- as much as the True Believers™ wish they could.

Take the vaunted 10 commandments-- several are Thought Crimes. As if *that* could be enforced!

Laws are not about morality. That's either sad wishful thinking? Or draconian attempts to control thought.

 

[blü 2]

Children must also do as others say. Does that mean children are also treated like cows ?

Children are not sui juris, Women are.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You claim this, but you don't explain how it can be so used. Try that.

It's been done many times already. But your personal spin, that Magic Happens when a Magic Sperm hits a Magic Egg --- and Like Magic, the single cell is SUDDENLY A FULL PERSON.

That's the only way "life begins at conception" could possibly work. With MAGIC.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Criminal laws are all about morality..

ABSOLUTELY FALSE-- THEY ARE ABOUT PROPERTY, MONEY AND OWNERSHIP.

That's it. All the so-called "morality laws"? NEVER WORK-- EVER.

You cannot control peoples' thoughts as much as you wish you could.

That is the Holy Grail Of True Believers: Thought Control, isn't it?

That which is considered to be immoral (like murder or stealing or assault) is generally considered illegal. .

BUT--- THAT IS A PROPERTY CRIME. Murder? Destroying the PROPERTY (body) of the victim.

STEALING? TAKING PROPERTY.

Assault? DAMAGING THE PROPERTY (body).

You do not need to control THOUGHTS here--- as much as you desperately WISH YOU COULD-- like ALL religion.

1
Very few systems of law make illegal those things the culture considers to be moral..

Nope. See above-- YOU CANNOT LEGISLATE MORALITY-- that requires THOUGHT CONTROL.

Which does not exist.

Morality is a function of culture. If culture includes religion, well then.....

Indeed-- THOUGHT CRIMES ARE HIGH ON THE LIST UNDER RELIGION.

Which is why under RELIGION so many INNOCENT GET PUNISHED OR KILLED.

But if culture doesn't include religion (i.e., a deity) then the morality comes from something else..

SANE? Yes...yes it does.... NO MORE THOUGHT CRIMES, for example...

For that matter, if there IS no deity, then morality can't possibly come from God, can it? It ALL comes from, well, people and culture..

Correct-- UNTIL YOU PRODUCE A GOD? That is accurate.

......................you do realize, do you not, that by claiming that all morality comes from religion, you are claiming that non-believers have no morals?.

Nope-- I am claiming BELIEVERS HAVE NO MORALS-- BECAUSE THEY DO NOT OWN THEIR OWN BEHAVIOR.

It's always BLAME GOD, or BLAME SATAN or BLAME ANYONE ELSE BUT THE BELIEVER.

I don't think you want to do that, do you?

You do not think these things through-- likely due to extreme bias and indoctrination.

After all-- YOU BELIEVE IN MAGIC.

 

[Koldo]

No. They are not even close. Morality requires thought. Laws cannot control thought-- as much as the True Believers™ wish they could.

Take the vaunted 10 commandments-- several are Thought Crimes. As if *that* could be enforced!

Laws are not about morality. That's either sad wishful thinking? Or draconian attempts to control thought.

Tell me one criminal law that is not related in any way to morality and explain to me why it exists.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Tell me one criminal law that is not related in any way to morality and explain to me why it exists.

Name the law-- and I can show it is either a PROPERTY/OWNERSHIP law? Or it is an utter failure as a law, and is unenforcable.

Many such "laws" exist-- which are blatant attempt at Moral "Law" (Thought Crime) and are always a dismal failure-- they are either "enforced" in a capricious and immoral way? And end up abusing a minority segment of the population?

Or they are simply ignored.

You cannot legislate Thought Crime-- because we cannot read minds-- as much as the True Believers™ desperately wish we could.

 

[Koldo]

Children are not sui juris, Women are.

Cows also aren't sui juris, right ?
Their juridical status is much more similar to children than to women. Does that mean we all treat children like cows ?

 

[Koldo]

Name the law-- and I can show it is either a PROPERTY/OWNERSHIP law? Or it is an utter failure as a law, and is unenforcable.

Many such "laws" exist-- which are blatant attempt at Moral "Law" (Thought Crime) and are always a dismal failure-- they are either "enforced" in a capricious and immoral way? And end up abusing a minority segment of the population?

Or they are simply ignored.

You cannot legislate Thought Crime-- because we cannot read minds-- as much as the True Believers™ desperately wish we could.

Homicide, for example. Why is it against the law to kill someone in many circumstances ?

 

[dianaiad]

It's been done many times already. But your personal spin, that Magic Happens when a Magic Sperm hits a Magic Egg --- and Like Magic, the single cell is SUDDENLY A FULL PERSON.

That's the only way "life begins at conception" could possibly work. With MAGIC.

No magic about it, unless you think that the combination of DNA is somehow magical.

At conception, the DNA from both parents combine to make that unique 'map' that defines what that human is. Every single one of us had that particular instant happen, and from that point on, we are dealing with a very true dichotomy; this human will grow through all the developmental changes we all grow through, and will become a human adult, OR....it will die.

It won't become anything else. It's DNA isn't going to suddenly change to make it something else, like a bird, fish or plant. It will become THAT specific human adult, or it will die. It may be damaged in many different ways, but that damage won't change the basic nature of that DNA....that specific individual.

That's not magic. That's science. Magical thinking is when you pretend that something uncanny happens that causes a sperm/egg combination that was once not human to suddenly become human at some point you feel good about.

My opinion regarding abortion isn't religious. It has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. I LIKE that my religion agrees with me...mostly (I have a slightly stricter view than it does, I think) but if I ever lost my faith, my opinion regarding this issue would not change.

Listen, Bob....if there is no deity, and no afterlife, and nothing around us but, er, nothing...how much more important is it that we protect ourselves, and the most innocent among us? How can anybody who believes that this life is all there is possibly condone the callous extinction of any human life just because a: it's inconvenient and b: we can't actually see it yet, so it doesn't matter?

Life MATTERS.

And I don't believe that there is a scientist out there who would argue that a fetus...from the instant of conception..is not alive.

 

[dianaiad]

ABSOLUTELY FALSE-- THEY ARE ABOUT PROPERTY, MONEY AND OWNERSHIP.

That's it. All the so-called "morality laws"? NEVER WORK-- EVER.

You cannot control peoples' thoughts as much as you wish you could.

That is the Holy Grail Of True Believers: Thought Control, isn't it?



BUT--- THAT IS A PROPERTY CRIME. Murder? Destroying the PROPERTY (body) of the victim.

STEALING? TAKING PROPERTY.

Assault? DAMAGING THE PROPERTY (body).

You do not need to control THOUGHTS here--- as much as you desperately WISH YOU COULD-- like ALL religion.


Nope. See above-- YOU CANNOT LEGISLATE MORALITY-- that requires THOUGHT CONTROL.

Which does not exist.


Indeed-- THOUGHT CRIMES ARE HIGH ON THE LIST UNDER RELIGION.

Which is why under RELIGION so many INNOCENT GET PUNISHED OR KILLED.



SANE? Yes...yes it does.... NO MORE THOUGHT CRIMES, for example...


Correct-- UNTIL YOU PRODUCE A GOD? That is accurate.


Nope-- I am claiming BELIEVERS HAVE NO MORALS-- BECAUSE THEY DO NOT OWN THEIR OWN BEHAVIOR.

It's always BLAME GOD, or BLAME SATAN or BLAME ANYONE ELSE BUT THE BELIEVER.


You do not think these things through-- likely due to extreme bias and indoctrination.

After all-- YOU BELIEVE IN MAGIC.

Y'know, if all you are going to do is make up the dialogue for your opponents, I don't actually need to participate, do I?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Homicide, for example. Why is it against the law to kill someone in many circumstances ?

Property law: You are destroying the property of the person: their body.

Bodily Autonomy is an ownership issue-- a person owns their own self, their own body, and has the rights to it.

Which is why Anti-Women/Anti-Abortion laws are so Evil-- they ignore a woman's right to own her own body. In favor of an invading parasitic organism-- who isn't even human (yet) at the point of the invasion-- and thus, has no property rights in the first place.

Proof? A dead body cannot be harvested for parts, without the express (and often written) permission of the former owner....

... under anti-abortion law, dead bodies have more rights than living women!

 

[Koldo]

Property law: You are destroying the property of the person: their body.

Bodily Autonomy is an ownership issue-- a person owns their own self, their own body, and has the rights to it.

Which is why Anti-Women/Anti-Abortion laws are so Evil-- they ignore a woman's right to own her own body. In favor of an invading parasitic organism-- who isn't even human (yet) at the point of the invasion-- and thus, has no property rights in the first place.

Proof? A dead body cannot be harvested for parts, without the express (and often written) permission of the former owner....

... under anti-abortion law, dead bodies have more rights than living women!

And why is it against the law to destroy someone's property?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No magic about it, unless you think that the combination of DNA is somehow magical..

But. You MUST invoke "magic" to claim that a clump of cells is a human-- and has more rights than the host body it has invaded... you have no science behind your distinction.

At conception, the DNA from both parents combine to make that unique 'map' that defines what that human is. .

Absolute BUNKUM. The DNA is merely a recipe, a kind of template-- there is MUCH Epigenetics to take place afterwards.

ALL of the subsequent development is because of Epigenetics-- a great deal of which is based on environmental factors! You 100% ignore this fact, and resort to a wrong, and niave idea that DNA is a Magic Blueprint or something.

Wrong.

Every single one of us had that particular instant happen, and from that point on, we are dealing with a very true dichotomy; this human will grow through all the developmental changes we all grow through, and will become a human adult, OR....it will die..

More magical woo.

It won't become anything else. .

Wrong. Epigenetics can play a role-- and may well change the development beyond viability.

Or? Fail to change a female brain into a male brain (to match the external sex characteristics).

Or? Many other things can happen, not all of which are benign. Sometimes? You don't even get a recognizable human out the other end.

SO YOUR MAGIC PICTURE-BOOK IS LIKE A FAIRY TALE-- nice, but ultimately wrong.

It's DNA isn't going to suddenly change to make it something else, like a bird, fish or plant. .

LMAO! Wrong. Again. You have no clue what DNA actually is, DO YOU?

It will become THAT specific human adult, or it will die. It may be damaged in many different ways, but that damage won't change the basic nature of that DNA....that specific individual..

WRONG. Again, see above.

Deleted the rest of your religious rant, as it added nothing to your misinformed "argument" above.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Listen, Bob....if there is no deity, and no afterlife, and nothing around us but, er, nothing...how much more important is it that we protect ourselves, and the most innocent among us? How can anybody who believes that this life is all there is possibly condone the callous extinction of any human life just because a: it's inconvenient and b: we can't actually see it yet, so it doesn't matter?.

The world is chock-full of humans-- who are breeding faster than rabbits. We could stand to have a few less humans, every year.

Since it's not human at the early stages, as it has no brain? End it before it becomes an actual baby, born into poverty, unwanted, unloved, no one cares--- off you go now, the Coal Mines need more worker-bees...

Life MATTERS..

Unless you are a pregnant woman? THEN? YOUR LIFE MATTERS NOT AT ALL-- IT'S ALL SCREW YOU-- YOU GET TO BE A BABY-INCUBATOR, LIKE IT OR NO, BECAUSE RELIGIOUS BIGOTS SAY SO.

And I don't believe that there is a scientist out there who would argue that a fetus...from the instant of conception..is not alive.

Appeal To Emotions Logical Fallacy.

So what? DO YOU WASH YOUR HANDS? Of course you do!

Every time you wash? Your killing BILLIONS of innocent bacteria! Sending them to their watery grave-- THOSE WERE ALIVE.

Being alive on Earth? Just isn't as big a deal as you think it is-- more magical non-think.