Probability of God's Existence.

Jeremiahcp · Mar 29, 2017

David T said:
My fault and the forum format as well. So

I am not slamming you btw i appreciate your stuff even if i at times seem obtuse or difficult.
I will try and simplify my other writing by saying there is 100% chance that nature exists. You may protest but, asking a question based on ken ham brain isn't actually a question. You asked specifically does God exist I said yes 100% proof God exists. Or do you think ken hammites actually even understand the topic of either nature or god and you agree with on anything?

There is 0% evidence of them understanding nature about 1% understanding god, maybe. If there is already 1% understanding to begin with how can one Have anything but 1% or less probability of the likelihood of the fantasy being true? It's a question that is starting out not even wrong. Therefore the question is invalid as its framed unless you agree with ken ham NER (not even wrong) On anything which I do no, t especially nature and or God.

That is a messy post.

"'You asked specifically does God exist"

I did no such thing. Try reading it again. The post is not about if God actually exist, it is about the misuse of probability to determine if God exist.

alan3261 · Mar 29, 2017

Jeremiahcp said:
OK this needs to be cleared up.

Probability is the proportion of possible outcomes measured by the repeat exercise of a random event. A random event in this context is random sampling or random assignment.

Arguments about the probability of God's existence are nonsensical. Remember that probability is a measurement, and it is not the same thing as possibility.

So if we say that God has a 50% chance of existing then that make no sense at all. If God exist then God does not have a 50% chance to exist, as God already exist. If God does not exist then God does not have a 50% chance to exist, as God does not exist. So the argument makes no sense at all

Remember that it is possible outcomes; generally the debate is not about the outcome of God's existence, instead the debate is about whether or not God already exist.

Now you can say I am 50% confidant (the difference here is the 50% applies to your guess) that God exist, but since there are no empirical data, you are really just arbitrarily assigning a number to your guess of God's existence.

Just because someone assigns a chance or suggest there is a chance to one of their beliefs, that alone does not prove that belief is or could be true. Probability does not define existence, it is tool with limitations, and is only useful when applied within its proper context and support by empirical data and rational thought.

When people say that the likelihood of the existence of god is 50% or any percentage, they are really saying that they don't know if there is one or not. Obviously you are arguing the technical wording because you believe there is a god and are annoyed when people say this. The only fact about the subject of god is that no one knows for sure if there is one or two or three, etc. So whether you say there is a 50% or whatever chance likelihood of his existence is not worthy of making a semantic argument against, because when people say this, all they are really saying is that they don't know one way or the other. If you think or are convinced there is one, fine, that's your opinion, but if you're honest to yourself, you would say that although I do believe in god, I have no direct evidence.

sunray · Mar 29, 2017

Probably best to make your mind up then wait for the proofs to arrive. They did in my case so there is a God "I know".
If i'd decided there wasn't a God when very young, then I'd probably have proof that God doesn't exist today: but I decided to keep an open mind. I came to the conclusion that if God doesn't want you to belive in Him he'll probably not interfere with your unbelief might even harden your heart like He did with the Pharaon and sit on his throne laughing like it says in Ps 2;2. His plans will undoubtedly be fulfilled anyway, to the common Good of all mankind including probable unbelievers!
Sunray

Scott C. · Mar 29, 2017

Jeremiahcp said:
OK this needs to be cleared up.

Probability is the proportion of possible outcomes measured by the repeat exercise of a random event. A random event in this context is random sampling or random assignment.

Arguments about the probability of God's existence are nonsensical. Remember that probability is a measurement, and it is not the same thing as possibility.

So if we say that God has a 50% chance of existing then that make no sense at all. If God exist then God does not have a 50% chance to exist, as God already exist. If God does not exist then God does not have a 50% chance to exist, as God does not exist. So the argument makes no sense at all

Remember that it is possible outcomes; generally the debate is not about the outcome of God's existence, instead the debate is about whether or not God already exist.

Now you can say I am 50% confidant (the difference here is the 50% applies to your guess) that God exist, but since there are no empirical data, you are really just arbitrarily assigning a number to your guess of God's existence.

Just because someone assigns a chance or suggest there is a chance to one of their beliefs, that alone does not prove that belief is or could be true. Probability does not define existence, it is tool with limitations, and is only useful when applied within its proper context and support by empirical data and rational thought.

You can't prove scientifically that God does or does not exist. Neither can you scientifically demonstrate the probability of his existence. But we all know we use the term "probably" in much more informal ways. I believe God definitely exists. I give it a 99.9 probability. Is that scientific? No. Is it what I believe based on my experiences with God and faith? Yes.

Jeremiahcp · Mar 29, 2017

Scott C. said:
You can't prove scientifically that God does or does not exist. Neither can you scientifically demonstrate the probability of his existence. But we all know we use the term "probably" in much more informal ways. I believe God definitely exists. I give it a 99.9 probability. Is that scientific? No. Is it what I believe based on my experiences with God and faith? Yes.

That is essentially what I said in the OP right here:

Now you can say I am 50% confidant (the difference here is the 50% applies to your guess) that God exist, but since there are no empirical data, you are really just arbitrarily assigning a number to your guess of God's existence.

Jeremiahcp · Mar 29, 2017

alan3261 said:
When people say that the likelihood of the existence of god is 50% or any percentage, they are really saying that they don't know if there is one or not. Obviously you are arguing the technical wording because you believe there is a god and are annoyed when people say this. The only fact about the subject of god is that no one knows for sure if there is one or two or three, etc. So whether you say there is a 50% or whatever chance likelihood of his existence is not worthy of making a semantic argument against, because when people say this, all they are really saying is that they don't know one way or the other. If you think or are convinced there is one, fine, that's your opinion, but if you're honest to yourself, you would say that although I do believe in god, I have no direct evidence.

Where did you get this notion that I believe in God?

Scott C. · Mar 29, 2017

Jeremiahcp said:
That is essentially what I said in the OP right here:

Now you can say I am 50% confidant (the difference here is the 50% applies to your guess) that God exist, but since there are no empirical data, you are really just arbitrarily assigning a number to your guess of God's existence.

I think I agree. Probably.

Although I would say that my probability factor is determined in the laboratory of my soul. There are experiences and tests and results and feelings that I measure in my mind, heart, and soul. These convince. I can use my experiences to influence others belief to some extent, but for the most part everyone needs to draw their own conclusions in the laboratory of their very own and personal soul.

Curious George · Mar 29, 2017

Jeremiahcp said:
Please feel free to explain how.

To define probability as only that something will happen and not that somethinh is the case excludes conversations about things that are the case.

viole · Mar 29, 2017

Jeremiahcp said:
OK this needs to be cleared up.

Probability is the proportion of possible outcomes measured by the repeat exercise of a random event. A random event in this context is random sampling or random assignment.

Arguments about the probability of God's existence are nonsensical. Remember that probability is a measurement, and it is not the same thing as possibility.

So if we say that God has a 50% chance of existing then that make no sense at all. If God exist then God does not have a 50% chance to exist, as God already exist. If God does not exist then God does not have a 50% chance to exist, as God does not exist. So the argument makes no sense at all

Remember that it is possible outcomes; generally the debate is not about the outcome of God's existence, instead the debate is about whether or not God already exist.

Now you can say I am 50% confidant (the difference here is the 50% applies to your guess) that God exist, but since there are no empirical data, you are really just arbitrarily assigning a number to your guess of God's existence.

Just because someone assigns a chance or suggest there is a chance to one of their beliefs, that alone does not prove that belief is or could be true. Probability does not define existence, it is tool with limitations, and is only useful when applied within its proper context and support by empirical data and rational thought.

The probablity argument leads necessarily to funny conclusions, if not applied properly.

Suppose the following, mutually exclusive, statements:

1) there is exactly one god
2) there are exactly two gods
3) there are exactly three gods.
....
100) there are exactly 100 gods

We could do the same with independent claims involving blue fairies, bigfoot, Loch Ness, or whatever our imagination could produce, without any empirical data to support it.

Now, if they all had 50% chance, it would follow that there is an enormous probability for at least one of those possibilities to be true. No matter how crazy they are.

We could decrease the 50% probability, but that will not help, as long as it is kept bigger than zero. I would just have to increase the list of made up stuff to come the same conclusions.

Ciao

- viole

Kilgore Trout · Mar 29, 2017

We can just toss the word "probability" into the pile with other words such as "quantum" and "energy," which are misused so much by your average layperson, as to have become completely meaningless unless used by someone who actually has business using them.

Robert Landbeck · Mar 29, 2017

Jeremiahcp said:
OK this needs to be cleared up.

Jeremiahcp said:
OK this needs to be cleared up"

That could turn out to be the understatement of the day! For one may argue until the cows come home, by any measure or model of logic, either for or against the idea of God or any particular tradition or denomination, but the world is none the better or wiser for it.

The question has now become this: could two thousand years of scholastic exegesis, tradition and the faith of millions be wholly in error? And no longer just a rhetorical question for mud slinging between atheist and religious, we are on the threshold of discovering that answer!

The first wholly new interpretation for two thousand years of the moral teachings of Christ has been published. Radically different from anything else we know of from theology or history, this new teaching is predicated upon the 'promise' of a precise, predefined, predictable and repeatable experience of transcendent omnipotence and called 'the first Resurrection' in the sense that the Resurrection of Jesus was intended to demonstrate Gods' willingness to reveal Himself and intervene directly into the natural world for those obedient to His Command, paving the way for access, by faith, to the power of divine Will and ultimate proof!

So like it or no, a new religious teaching, testable by faith, meeting all Enlightenment criteria of evidence based causation and definitive proof now exists. Nothing short of an intellectual, moral and religious revolution is getting under way. To test or not to test, that is the question? More info at The Final Freedoms

Jeremiahcp · Mar 29, 2017

Curious George said:
To define probability as only that something will happen and not that somethinh is the case excludes conversations about things that are the case.

That was covered in the OP.

DrTCH · Mar 29, 2017

I happen to have become convinced of some kind of “spiritual reality,” though things in this realm seem to defy scientific proof. Yet, another problem lies in (given this as a premise), there is no guarantee that this “something” is the Judeo-Christian deity….and I find those who persist in asking about one’s beliefs, insisting on this framing of the question in those terms to be most irritating. Bare-bones, I DO NOT believe in the child-like “bearded dude in the sky” (hurling lightning bolts, and bestowing boons), but are confident of some kind of “sustaining and creative force.”

Jeremiahcp · Mar 29, 2017

@Robert Landbeck please fix your post so it does not look like your words are mine.

Curious George · Mar 29, 2017

Jeremiahcp said:
That was covered in the OP.

Yes, it was the logic of the OP to which I had replied.

Sanmario · Mar 29, 2017

Dear Jeremi, all your talk is just in your mind only.

Take care you don't get mixed up with what is purely in your mind and what is in objective reality outside and independent of your mind.

But you can use what is in your mind, as a guide to seek for the realities outside and independent of your mind, if you care to seek for realities outside and independent of your thoughts in your mind - again, using them as a guide when you conduct your expedition in the objective realm of realities outside and independent of your mind.

When you become mindless, raving mad, the objectival realm of realities continue to exist.

Sanmario said:
The object and concept of God and the existence of God.

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by Sanmario, Mar 18, 2017.
___________

There is a distinction between the objectival realm of things and the conceptival realm of things.

An example of a thing in the objectival realm is the nose in our face.

And an example of a thing in the conceptival realm is the idea of God.

Now, when we talk about God we have an idea of God, otherwise we would be talking about nothing at all with precision, if we don’t have an idea at all of God.

What is our idea of God? That is what we want to work on as to come to concurrence on the concept of God.

With the nose in our face, we all have the same idea of nose and we all know for a certainty the existence of the nose outside our mind, outside namely the conceptival realm, and it is in the objectival realm, independent of our mind.

So paging thinkers here, what is your concept of God?

Here is my concept of God:

God in concept is first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.

#1 Sanmario, Mar 18, 2017

Sanmario said:
Sanmario said: ↑
Dear Jeremi, if I may, when you ask what is the probability of bird's poop landing on your head as you stroll in a park, you do have a concept of bird's poop.

You see, and forgive me or forbear with me, don't you see that you must have a concept of God, to ask about the probability of God existing or not existing: otherwise I can't see you to be talking logically.

And also the person taking the task to exchange thoughts with you on the probability of God existing or not, he must also have a concept of God.

What I want to tell you that anyone taking the care to to talk with you at all about probability of God existing, both sides must have the same concept of God.

Just as both sides talking about the probability of bird's poop landing on a person's head.

So also with the question on which side a twirling coin will land on.

I like very much to exchange thoughts with you further; please, can we keep to logic as we talk about the probability of God existing?
"You see, and forgive me or forbear with me, don't you see that you must have a concept of God, to ask about the probability of God existing or not existing: otherwise I can't see you to be talking logically."

Jeremiahcp said:

"You see, and forgive me or forbear with me, don't you see that you must have a concept of God, to ask about the probability of God existing or not existing: otherwise I can't see you to be talking logically."

I didn't ask about the probability of God, I explained how probability works, you could stick the Flying Spaghetti Monster in for God and it would still be the same.

#17 Jeremiahcp, Last edited: Yesterday at 1:58 PM

Click to expand...

Serenity7855 · Mar 29, 2017

Jeremiahcp said:
OK this needs to be cleared up.

Probability is the proportion of possible outcomes measured by the repeat exercise of a random event. A random event in this context is random sampling or random assignment.

Arguments about the probability of God's existence are nonsensical. Remember that probability is a measurement, and it is not the same thing as possibility.

So if we say that God has a 50% chance of existing then that make no sense at all. If God exist then God does not have a 50% chance to exist, as God already exist. If God does not exist then God does not have a 50% chance to exist, as God does not exist. So the argument makes no sense at all

Remember that it is possible outcomes; generally the debate is not about the outcome of God's existence, instead the debate is about whether or not God already exist.

Now you can say I am 50% confidant (the difference here is the 50% applies to your guess) that God exist, but since there are no empirical data, you are really just arbitrarily assigning a number to your guess of God's existence.

Just because someone assigns a chance or suggest there is a chance to one of their beliefs, that alone does not prove that belief is or could be true. Probability does not define existence, it is tool with limitations, and is only useful when applied within its proper context and support by empirical data and rational thought.

I do not think that I understand your reasoning here. Are you suggesting that the existence of God can be equated to a percentage, a partial truth. I am a Christian and I believe, without reservation, that God exists, however, if you ask me for proof then I would be at a loss to provide any, as you would be to prove that he does not exist. You see, belief in God is personal to each individual, based on the faith of the believer. Probability cannot be a function of belief as it demands physical evidence that can be measured and remeasured. An individuals belief is only relevant to that individual. Which is always going to be a 100% belief or 100% disbelief and never a percentage of either. As a Christian it is expected of me to spread the word of God, not to prove His existence, that is down to the investigator, unfortunately, that reduces the OP to a non sequitur.

Having said that, our universe is teaming with unexplained phenomenon that could as easily be attributed to a supernatural God as anything else. If a value for 100% proof existed then once the value exceeded 50% Gods existence would be absolute. Evidence that includes the Big Bag, the anthropic principle, rapid expansion, dark energy and mass, abiogenesis, fine tuning, etc… to name just a few. Now In my personal estimation there are far more unexplained phenomena than resolved so you could conclude that if it were possible to use the scientific method on God's existence the results would "Probably" be in favour of God's existence.

KKawohl · Mar 29, 2017

My spirit was shown the beginning, the beginning of man
But who is before man, how did God, this unity begin?
Come with me my son and you will see.

The beginning of God was many, many eons ago,
Travel with me to the start of time
To the beginning of the universe and where life began

That life form seems foreign, yet it is full of love
A rationality there from sprang then two, then more
The unity of spirit upon their demise began.

Now we will go back to your world, the start of man.
In the distance I see a speck, like a kernel of sand
Is that my land, my earth amongst the vast expanse?

Yes, this is where your kind has fought over me
And killed its kind. Come I will show you,
There is your Adam and your Eve

There also is Abraham, the leader of men
His wife and his children and the strife that began
When he talked about his God

It was the interaction of his spirit with ours
That puzzled his mind
He began to pray and worship and his missions began.

This guidance, though sometimes it has produced pain,
Has served man well. Man needed a God to rely on
To know that his life is not in vain.

Then there was Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed,
My messengers who inspired their people
To lift their spirits when life seems bleak.

Often during the physical lives of my messengers
The viciousness of man came out of a need for survival,
But if their spirit remained clean their soul is now a part of us.

The Crusades came, the killings, the enslavement
They said that it was logical and rational
That God was like a king, a ruler, a dominator.

Who needed man’s worship and obedience
They built churches, temples and mosques
This was not God’s making, it is the want of man.

The tragedies of late have burdened your soul
With an attempt to find answers.
We, the unity can guide and suggest, but it is up to mankind
To change the destiny of man.

https://mgib.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/messengers-01-002.jpg

divine lover · Mar 29, 2017

Jeremiahcp said:
OK this needs to be cleared up.

Probability is the proportion of possible outcomes measured by the repeat exercise of a random event. A random event in this context is random sampling or random assignment.

Arguments about the probability of God's existence are nonsensical. Remember that probability is a measurement, and it is not the same thing as possibility.

So if we say that God has a 50% chance of existing then that make no sense at all. If God exist then God does not have a 50% chance to exist, as God already exist. If God does not exist then God does not have a 50% chance to exist, as God does not exist. So the argument makes no sense at all

Remember that it is possible outcomes; generally the debate is not about the outcome of God's existence, instead the debate is about whether or not God already exist.

Now you can say I am 50% confidant (the difference here is the 50% applies to your guess) that God exist, but since there are no empirical data, you are really just arbitrarily assigning a number to your guess of God's existence.

Just because someone assigns a chance or suggest there is a chance to one of their beliefs, that alone does not prove that belief is or could be true. Probability does not define existence, it is tool with limitations, and is only useful when applied within its proper context and support by empirical data and rational thought.

I'd say that God probably exists, that is from my perspective having analysed the data.

KKawohl · Mar 29, 2017

God exists only to him who believes in God.
The devil exists only to him who believes in the devil.
Heaven and Hell exists only to him who believes they exist, etc., etc.

Probability of God's Existence.

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