-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Problem with sin/free will arguement
- Thread starter JustWondering
- Start date
of course, --seems like we were 'made' to sin...
Hi BIG D
Yes, it seems like it. There seems to be something which makes a person do things which hurt others. What is that thing?
According to Dharmic faiths it is desire and ego (a sense of me versus you). As long as we desire something for me, then I am willing to hurt others to get it.
Remove desire and the ego affect on us and we no longer hurt others.
JustWondering
Jerk
Without instincts, emotion, and desires humanity would not be motivated to do anything. The species would die out. Therefore, even though emotion and desires can cause strife they are necessary for survival.
Good point. Is it uncontrolled desire, emotions and anger that causes us problems? If we could keep calm, couldn't we have our cake and eat it too?
We can reproduce from love, not just from desire. We can work hard because we love our dependent family. These are thoughts for example, there is no real limits to what we can do if we are in control of ourselves.
I don't think MOST people want to hurt others--but a lot get mad, and want 'harm/bad things done' to those who offended them...my point is, how can lust be a sin?? MOST guys I know lust at all hot babes...people murder for a variety of reasons<>jealousy, rage,greed, hate,etc...everybody feels these emotions, but people are raised so differently...so you have some that don't have anything to 'hold' back their desire to muder/rape/rob/etc...
It appears to be a chain reaction. There are murders that seem quite illogical, almost tragic given the modern day access we have to alternatives, yet they still happen. Here is an example, how could this happen in todays society:
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...369-macho-killers-629-women-killed-their.html
It seems illogical, why not divorce, live apart, go for a walk!
In order to understand we must begin with a root cause. Investigate that root cause in oneself and those close and see if it is the culprit for yourself. It need not lead to something bad, but you can see how irritation, disappointment and even anger start to show.
The only reasonable explication I have found is that it starts as a desire. Desire is the root. A frustrated desire looks to vent its frustration in the form of force or anger. Anger and hate is destructive and leads to murder. It is removing an obstacle to feed a desire. The desire at that point is no longer significant, could be as small as desiring to watch Gospel on TV ..... http://www.allvoices.com/contribute...y-family-for-watching-football-worldcup-match
Last edited:
obviously the male is angry at losing his partner and/or being rejected[[OJ]], then they are super frustrated and in pain.
waitasec
Veteran Member
is curiosity an uncontrolled desire?
I would say so, yes. It is the desire to know more. Curiosity assumes a lack, there is a desire to satisfy that lack.
Desires are not wrong in them selves, the problem is that people identify with them and might loose control in the process.
We are never upset with a fact but with the interpretation of fact.
Very good!
waitasec
Veteran Member
forgive me for being dense...
but how does the desire to acquire knowledge lead someone to loose control?
loosing control of what they knew, perhaps? is that what you mean?
I have to use a fictional example. We might not act as we would have done if we had not considered the desire to be something we must satisfy.
Mr X desired to know what his wife had written about him in her diary, so when she was out he took a look out of curiosity. He found that she had been sleeping with his friend. Angry he took the diary and a knife to confront his friend.
Mr X desired to know what his wife had written about him in her diary, so when she was out he took a look out of curiosity. He found that she had been sleeping with his friend. Angry he took the diary and a knife to confront his friend.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
"This physical world of man is subject to the power of the lusts, and sin is the consequence of
this power of the lusts, for it is not subject to the laws of justice and holiness. The body of
man is a captive of nature; it will act in accordance with whatever nature orders. It is,
therefore, certain that sins such as anger, jealousy, dispute, covetousness, avarice, ignorance,
prejudice, hatred, pride and tyranny exist in the physical world. All these brutal qualities exist
in the nature of man. A man who has not had a spiritual education is a brute. Thus it is evident that
the physical world of man is a world of sin. In this physical world man is not distinguished
from the animal.
... attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin... It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.
....those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty." Some Answered Questions- Abdulbaha
this power of the lusts, for it is not subject to the laws of justice and holiness. The body of
man is a captive of nature; it will act in accordance with whatever nature orders. It is,
therefore, certain that sins such as anger, jealousy, dispute, covetousness, avarice, ignorance,
prejudice, hatred, pride and tyranny exist in the physical world. All these brutal qualities exist
in the nature of man. A man who has not had a spiritual education is a brute. Thus it is evident that
the physical world of man is a world of sin. In this physical world man is not distinguished
from the animal.
... attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin... It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.
....those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty." Some Answered Questions- Abdulbaha
waitasec
Veteran Member
so would it be better to live oblivious to the truth?
it is what we do with the knowledge we acquire that defines us...
his curiosity didn't kill anyone, his anger potentially could.
are you going to blame knowledge, the knife or the man
Last edited:
waitasec
Veteran Member
"spiritual education" is knowledge.
we know from experience anything in excess or taken to a higher degree is unhealthy.
all those "sins" are a result from excess and being knowledgeable of the consequence.
anger is the next step from being hurt, ridiculed, betrayed...
jealousy/covetousness/avarice is the next step from deficiency
dispute is the next step from stubbornness
ignorance/prejudice/ hatred/pride/tyranny is direct result of fear
we all feel hurt, deficient, stubborn and fear it is what we do with these innate feelings.
for instance, if a man finds out that is wife is really in-love with someone else the foundation of their relationship will rise to the occasion.
if the relationship was based on pride and control then the the reaction would be hate and jealousy stemming from the hurt
if the foundation is love, then his reaction would be to feel hurt and betrayed.
am i making sense?
You are correct. Anger is the problem. The illustration is how desire, if allowed to take root will be a motivating factor which can lead to actions which direct the course of one's life.
As mentioned, desire itself isn't a problem, it is recognising the influence of desire which will change a person's destiny. If you already know the fire is hot, you won't need to touch it.
Spiritual/philosophical ignorance was to blame.
Last edited:
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Yeah! Spiritual education is a knowledge.
"Training in morals and good conduct is far more important than book learning. A child that is cleanly, agreeable, of good character, well-behaved even though he be ignorant is preferable to a child that is rude, unwashed, ill-natured, and yet becoming deeply versed in all the sciences and arts. The reason for this is that the child who conducts himself well, even though he be ignorant, is of benefit to others, while an ill-natured, ill-behaved child is corrupted and harmful to others, even though he be learned. If, however, the child be trained to be both learned and good, the result is light upon light." --`Abdu'l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Bahá