Problem with sin/free will arguement

[waitasec]

Yeah! Spiritual education is a knowledge.

"Training in morals and good conduct is far more important than book learning. A child that is cleanly, agreeable, of good character, well-behaved even though he be ignorant is preferable to a child that is rude, unwashed, ill-natured, and yet becoming deeply versed in all the sciences and arts. The reason for this is that the child who conducts himself well, even though he be ignorant, is of benefit to others, while an ill-natured, ill-behaved child is corrupted and harmful to others, even though he be learned. If, however, the child be trained to be both learned and good, the result is light upon light." --`Abdu'l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Bahá

the best teacher is experience...
now go out there and make mistakes

 

[InvestigateTruth]

the best teacher is experience...
now go out there and make mistakes

From experience we can definately learn. Though, there would still be a need for an educator. Because, let's say that there is a perfect educator, who has perfect knowledge, then it is alot better to take advantage.

"But education is of three kinds: material, human and spiritual. Material education is concerned with the progress and development of the body, through gaining its sustenance, its material comfort and ease. This education is common to animals and man.

Human education signifies civilization and progress—that is to say, government, administration, charitable works, trades, arts and handicrafts, sciences, great inventions and discoveries and elaborate institutions, which are the activities essential to man as distinguished from the animal. ​

Divine education is that of the Kingdom of God: it consists in acquiring divine perfections, and this is true education; for in this state man becomes the focus of divine blessings, the manifestation of the words...

Then it is plain and evident that man needs an educator, and this educator must be unquestionably and indubitably perfect in all respects and distinguished above all men.

It is clear that human power is not able to fill such a great office, and that reason alone could not undertake the responsibility of so great a mission. "

 

[waitasec]

From experience we can definately learn. Though, there would still be a need for an educator. Because, let's say that there is a perfect educator, who has perfect knowledge, then it is alot better to take advantage.

"But education is of three kinds: material, human and spiritual. Material education is concerned with the progress and development of the body, through gaining its sustenance, its material comfort and ease. This education is common to animals and man.

Human education signifies civilization and progress—that is to say, government, administration, charitable works, trades, arts and handicrafts, sciences, great inventions and discoveries and elaborate institutions, which are the activities essential to man as distinguished from the animal. ​

Divine education is that of the Kingdom of God: it consists in acquiring divine perfections, and this is true education; for in this state man becomes the focus of divine blessings, the manifestation of the words...

Then it is plain and evident that man needs an educator, and this educator must be unquestionably and indubitably perfect in all respects and distinguished above all men.

It is clear that human power is not able to fill such a great office, and that reason alone could not undertake the responsibility of so great a mission. "

i'd say gaining knowledge and applying wisdom from it is "divine"
reason i don't like the word divine is because it implies the wisdom we gain doesn't come from within... when it does... ultimately

 

[Poisonshady313]

Many abrahamic theists like to argue that humanity created sin, not god (who is blameless, good, and pure). Which justifies their god in treating humanity like dirt. That just does not make any sense to me. Especially since god is to have created everything. My reasoning goes like this:

Sin = disobedience to god.
Free will = the choice to be obedient or not (sin).
God created free will = God created sin.

It amounts to an adult storing a loaded gun with their kids toys and telling the child "don't play with this its dangerous". If someone ends up getting shot are you really going to blame the child? Seriously, why is this such a hard concept for theists to understand?

I think of it more like the state giving a person his driver's license and expecting him not to violate traffic laws.

The state built the roads, set the speed limit, issued a driver's manual... and while a person is more than capable of violating the rules of the road, it is in his best interest, and in the best interest of everyone else, if he follow the rules of the road.

 

[waitasec]

I think of it more like the state giving a person his driver's license and expecting him not to violate traffic laws.

of course the state expects you to violate traffic laws, it's counting on it...

laws are meant to be broken... how else would we progress?

 

[JustWondering]

I think of it more like the state giving a person his driver's license and expecting him not to violate traffic laws.

The state built the roads, set the speed limit, issued a driver's manual... and while a person is more than capable of violating the rules of the road, it is in his best interest, and in the best interest of everyone else, if he follow the rules of the road.

The only problem with your analogy is that the state doesn't torture and kill people if they break the speed limit. We broke one rule (that as far as I can tell was a victimless crime) and god inflicts disease, pestilence, birth defects, painful births, droughts, natural disasters and death on us. Anyway you look at it the god of the bible is a saddistic jerk. I think christians must live in denial or they are masochists.

 

[Onkara]

i'd say gaining knowledge and applying wisdom from it is "divine"
reason i don't like the word divine is because it implies the wisdom we gain doesn't come from within... when it does... ultimately

Interesting, I take the same attitude towards the word "God" as "God" is a noun and implies an object, independent to us. This is not in line with non-dualism, so I use the adjective "divine" and find it does apply to us, as we can say "you/life/etc is divine" and so it is implied it is "godly" without being independent. This is the point you make why you correctly say ultimately wisdom comes from within.

It is hair-splitting really, but I add this only for interaction as I found your points interesting.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

i'd say gaining knowledge and applying wisdom from it is "divine"
reason i don't like the word divine is because it implies the wisdom we gain doesn't come from within... when it does... ultimately

Speaking of Wisdom. Well, I think, we all have our own Wisdom at our own level of understanding. That is to say, wisdom is relative.
However if we say that there is an intelligent being who is the creator, then it is unlikely that such an intelligent Being, does not care about His creation and creatures.
Even parents care about their children, and guide them and help them. Just because children have mind and brain, that wouldn't justify parents to leave their kids on their own.
How could the creator of the worlds, who must be such an intelligent Being, never interacts with His creation, neither guides them?
Moreover, how could all these people who claimed to be Messengers, were not what they claimed?