I must be doing it backwards then having already realized unity first. I never was any good at following sequential instructions.
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Proclaim the Good News to all creation
- Thread starter John Martin
- Start date
I must be doing it backwards then having already realized unity first. I never was any good at following sequential instructions.
John Martin
Active Member
I see. I'm not as familiar with Christian mysticism. Perhaps all stages are interconnected rather than following a strict pattern. There is unity in purification and there is illumination in unity. In Zen circles, we speak of enlightenment before enlightenment. Primal being is already present within such that there's no need to seek anything outside.
John Martin
Active Member
Literalism is sort of a new tradition in relation to the longevity of the Christian tradition.
I will wholeheartedly agree, however, that Mystic Christian traditions are hard to talk about with literal/fundamentalist crowds.
Not that I had any place or forum in mind.
Among the literate, yes. But literacy is an even more recent tradition in the West.
I will wholeheartedly agree, however, that Mystic Christian traditions are hard to talk about with literal/fundamentalist crowds.
Not that I had any place or forum in mind.
Odd too since so many of the early church fathers at least dabbled in mystical interpretation.
Among the literate, yes. But literacy is an even more recent tradition in the West.
Wonder if that is a trend in other faith traditions as well?
Agreed.
Tranquil Servant
Was M.I.A for a while
Hi JM, first I want to apologize if I offended you; that wasn't my intent. I wasn't trying to put a label on your thoughts as being "New Age;" I was only trying to say they were similar. I too don't like to put a label on myself or put myself into a category which obligates me to follow teachings I don't believe or agree with. I would like to ask some questions if you don't mind.
1) what do you mean when you say you changed your opinion "due to encountering great soul either dead or living?"
2) what is your definition of divine and manifestation and how do they apply to mankind? or how does one become a divine manifestation?
3) If you do hold Christ as being a divine manifestation, who or what else do you hold as being a divine manifestation?
I associate divinity with immortality, perfection, or God. And Yes...if we mean eternal then the flesh cannot be eternal because humans are condemned to die but I believe some will also be condemned to die spiritually. I believe when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, he condemned humans and the earth with sin so then everything that lives will die. However, because of God's mercy he promised a way for mankind to still have eternal life and only those who are considered pure (children) or born again (spiritually) will be granted eternal life; otherwise others will not just die physically but spiritually too.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for Gods wrath remains on them.
Romans 8:10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.
Revelation 2:11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.
I believe Jesus was divine and perfect since his conception. If so, how can someone who is divine and perfect, repent? I believe his baptism wasn't a declaration of repentance but a declaration to mark the commencement of his ministry. A ceremony that symbolically represented his prophesized sacrifice (death and resurrection). The baptism was also to fulfill prophecy and to reassure John that he was doing God's will by baptizing.
John 1:33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.
Notice how John was reluctant to baptize Jesus knowing he was of God and without sin; the spotless lamb of God.
Matthew 3:14
But John tried to deter him, saying, I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?
John 1:29-30
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.
John Martin
Active Member
Dear Tranquil Servant,
thank your your post. It will take some time to reply to your post.Thanks.
thank your your post. It will take some time to reply to your post.Thanks.
John Martin
Active Member
Originally Posted by John Martin View Post
Tranquil Servant: The only "divine manifestation" I know of is that of God's in Christ. Christ is the manifestation of God's word, law, salvation, and grace in the human flesh but even the "temple" (flesh) of God was destroyed and rose again to accomplish victory over death. However, to say flesh will manifest into the divine sounds kind of contradictory because the flesh ultimately dies. I associate divinity with perfection or God (a deity). I cannot associate something (like flesh) which is weak and condemned to die with divinity.
John Martin: Christ is the only Divine Manifestation is the belief I had until 1982. Afterwards I had to change this opinion due to encountering great soul either dead or living and from my own personal experience. Jesus Christ resonates with my thinking, feelings and the questions I have but today I do not hold that Christ is the only divine manifestation.
Tranquil Servant:
1) What do you mean when you say you changed your opinion "due to encountering great soul either dead or living?"
John Martin
Until 1982 I was brought up with the belief that Jesus Christ was the only manifestation or incarnation of God but I discovered that 500 years before Jesus the Upanishad sages had the similar (may not be identical) experience of God that Jesus had. After Jesus also many had the similar experience of God in India and also in Europe, among the Christian mystics, Meister Eckhart was a great soul.
Tranquil Servant:
2) What is your definition of divine and manifestation and how do they apply to mankind? Or how does one become a divine manifestation?
John Martin
Divine is the ultimate reality, the ground of the whole creation. It is better to say as less as possible when we speak of God. The whole of creation is the manifestation of God. Human beings are gifted with the possibility of becoming conscious of being the manifestations( the Son of God, in the case of Jesus) and being one with God like Jesus who said, .The Father and I one. Realizing this truth makes one humble like Jesus, who washed the feet of his disciples a sign that his mission was to help others to realize the truth that he has realized.
Tranquil Servant
3) If you do hold Christ as being a divine manifestation, who or what else do you hold as being a divine manifestation?
John Martin
I believe Sri Ramakrishna had the experience of being one with God. Sri Ramana Maharsi is another great soul who had realized his oneness with the divine. I like the teachings of Sathya Sai Baba and I feel no one can teach what he taught with having the experience of God, even though I have difficulties with the personality cult he had. There are many great souls today who have this experience of oneness with divine. But I feel very much at home with Jesus because of the humility that his divine manifestation manifested, even though Christians have made him into an impossible ideal. Jesus is divine manifestation because he helps to realize that I am also a divine manifestation: I am the Light of the world and you are the light of the world
Tranquil Servant:
If we mean divine as eternal then flesh cannot be eternal because it has the beginning and the end
John Martin
Names and forms are not eternal, what is wit in the names and forms is eternal. If we take the example of ice and water, Ice is water and water is ice. The form of ice is not eternal because when the ice melts it form disappears. But it also shares in the eternity of God. So we can say even though the form of the flesh is not eternal it participates in the eternity of God.
Tranquil Servant:
I associate divinity with immortality, perfection, or God. And Yes...if we mean eternal then the flesh cannot be eternal because humans are condemned to die but I believe some will also be condemned to die spiritually. I believe when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, he condemned humans and the earth with sin so then everything that lives will die. However, because of God's mercy he promised a way for mankind to still have eternal life and only those who are considered pure (children) or born again (spiritually) will be granted eternal life; otherwise others will not just die physically but spiritually too.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for Gods wrath remains on them.
Romans 8:10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.
Revelation 2:11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.
John Martin
I also can say that divinity is immortality, perfection (I prefer the words fullness, wholeness or holiness) or God.
It is not possible that some are condemned spiritually, for the reason that God created everyone in his or her image and likeness. This is already in the presence of God. This is the free gift and the unconditional love that God has given to everyone. So it is impossible that God condemns someone spiritually.
Tranquil Servant
I believe when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, he condemned humans and the earth with sin so then everything that lives will die.
John Martin
Adam and Eve did not disobey God. Eating the forbidden fruit is a necessary process of evolution of human consciousness, to be conscious of what is unconscious. The desire to become like God is the desire to become conscious of ones image and likeness of God.
Tranquil Servant
However, because of God's mercy he promised a way for mankind to still have eternal life and only those who are considered pure (children) or born again (spiritually) will be granted eternal life; otherwise others will not just die physically but spiritually too.
John Martin
Every human consciousness will ultimately realize its image and likeness of God and no one will be condemned physically or spiritually, though they have to go through a process of purification either here on earth or in other life according to the will of God.
Tranquil Servant
I believe Jesus was divine and perfect since his conception. If so, how can someone who is divine and perfect, repent? I believe his baptism wasn't a declaration of repentance but a declaration to mark the commencement of his ministry. A ceremony that symbolically represented his prophesized sacrifice (death and resurrection). The baptism was also to fulfill prophecy and to reassure John that he was doing God's will by baptizing.
John Martin
Jesus was divine and perfect since his conception but he had to become conscious of this truth. His baptism experience was the moment when he became conscious of it. Repentance is not something negative, it is a process of growth in the self -discovery. This applies to every human being. Every human being is created or manifested in the image and likeness of God. It is perfect and whole. But everyone has to become conscious of this truth. Repentance is a process through which one discovers this truth. There are certain things in the NT which were the constructions of the early Church. So we must be aware what the construction of the early Church is and what was real. Jesus might have told his disciples the God experience he had. They have placed that experience in the context of his baptism.
John 1:33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.
Notice how John was reluctant to baptize Jesus knowing he was of God and without sin; the spotless lamb of God.
Matthew 3:14
But John tried to deter him, saying, I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?
John 1:29-30
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.
In the early Church there were heated discussions about the role of and the place of John the Baptist. Some thought John the Baptist himself was the Messiah. The evangelist had to tackle this issue. So we find narrations and incidents where John the Baptist is put in the second place. Luke goes still further that John the Baptist recognizes the supremacy of Jesus while he was still in his mothers womb. So we read the episodes that are connected with Jesus and John the Baptist, we have to look at them from this aspect. It is not only my opinion many Biblical scholars would think in that way.
Tranquil Servant: The only "divine manifestation" I know of is that of God's in Christ. Christ is the manifestation of God's word, law, salvation, and grace in the human flesh but even the "temple" (flesh) of God was destroyed and rose again to accomplish victory over death. However, to say flesh will manifest into the divine sounds kind of contradictory because the flesh ultimately dies. I associate divinity with perfection or God (a deity). I cannot associate something (like flesh) which is weak and condemned to die with divinity.
John Martin: Christ is the only Divine Manifestation is the belief I had until 1982. Afterwards I had to change this opinion due to encountering great soul either dead or living and from my own personal experience. Jesus Christ resonates with my thinking, feelings and the questions I have but today I do not hold that Christ is the only divine manifestation.
Tranquil Servant:
1) What do you mean when you say you changed your opinion "due to encountering great soul either dead or living?"
John Martin
Until 1982 I was brought up with the belief that Jesus Christ was the only manifestation or incarnation of God but I discovered that 500 years before Jesus the Upanishad sages had the similar (may not be identical) experience of God that Jesus had. After Jesus also many had the similar experience of God in India and also in Europe, among the Christian mystics, Meister Eckhart was a great soul.
Tranquil Servant:
2) What is your definition of divine and manifestation and how do they apply to mankind? Or how does one become a divine manifestation?
John Martin
Divine is the ultimate reality, the ground of the whole creation. It is better to say as less as possible when we speak of God. The whole of creation is the manifestation of God. Human beings are gifted with the possibility of becoming conscious of being the manifestations( the Son of God, in the case of Jesus) and being one with God like Jesus who said, .The Father and I one. Realizing this truth makes one humble like Jesus, who washed the feet of his disciples a sign that his mission was to help others to realize the truth that he has realized.
Tranquil Servant
3) If you do hold Christ as being a divine manifestation, who or what else do you hold as being a divine manifestation?
John Martin
I believe Sri Ramakrishna had the experience of being one with God. Sri Ramana Maharsi is another great soul who had realized his oneness with the divine. I like the teachings of Sathya Sai Baba and I feel no one can teach what he taught with having the experience of God, even though I have difficulties with the personality cult he had. There are many great souls today who have this experience of oneness with divine. But I feel very much at home with Jesus because of the humility that his divine manifestation manifested, even though Christians have made him into an impossible ideal. Jesus is divine manifestation because he helps to realize that I am also a divine manifestation: I am the Light of the world and you are the light of the world
Tranquil Servant:
If we mean divine as eternal then flesh cannot be eternal because it has the beginning and the end
John Martin
Names and forms are not eternal, what is wit in the names and forms is eternal. If we take the example of ice and water, Ice is water and water is ice. The form of ice is not eternal because when the ice melts it form disappears. But it also shares in the eternity of God. So we can say even though the form of the flesh is not eternal it participates in the eternity of God.
Tranquil Servant:
I associate divinity with immortality, perfection, or God. And Yes...if we mean eternal then the flesh cannot be eternal because humans are condemned to die but I believe some will also be condemned to die spiritually. I believe when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, he condemned humans and the earth with sin so then everything that lives will die. However, because of God's mercy he promised a way for mankind to still have eternal life and only those who are considered pure (children) or born again (spiritually) will be granted eternal life; otherwise others will not just die physically but spiritually too.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for Gods wrath remains on them.
Romans 8:10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.
Revelation 2:11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.
John Martin
I also can say that divinity is immortality, perfection (I prefer the words fullness, wholeness or holiness) or God.
It is not possible that some are condemned spiritually, for the reason that God created everyone in his or her image and likeness. This is already in the presence of God. This is the free gift and the unconditional love that God has given to everyone. So it is impossible that God condemns someone spiritually.
Tranquil Servant
I believe when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, he condemned humans and the earth with sin so then everything that lives will die.
John Martin
Adam and Eve did not disobey God. Eating the forbidden fruit is a necessary process of evolution of human consciousness, to be conscious of what is unconscious. The desire to become like God is the desire to become conscious of ones image and likeness of God.
Tranquil Servant
However, because of God's mercy he promised a way for mankind to still have eternal life and only those who are considered pure (children) or born again (spiritually) will be granted eternal life; otherwise others will not just die physically but spiritually too.
John Martin
Every human consciousness will ultimately realize its image and likeness of God and no one will be condemned physically or spiritually, though they have to go through a process of purification either here on earth or in other life according to the will of God.
Tranquil Servant
I believe Jesus was divine and perfect since his conception. If so, how can someone who is divine and perfect, repent? I believe his baptism wasn't a declaration of repentance but a declaration to mark the commencement of his ministry. A ceremony that symbolically represented his prophesized sacrifice (death and resurrection). The baptism was also to fulfill prophecy and to reassure John that he was doing God's will by baptizing.
John Martin
Jesus was divine and perfect since his conception but he had to become conscious of this truth. His baptism experience was the moment when he became conscious of it. Repentance is not something negative, it is a process of growth in the self -discovery. This applies to every human being. Every human being is created or manifested in the image and likeness of God. It is perfect and whole. But everyone has to become conscious of this truth. Repentance is a process through which one discovers this truth. There are certain things in the NT which were the constructions of the early Church. So we must be aware what the construction of the early Church is and what was real. Jesus might have told his disciples the God experience he had. They have placed that experience in the context of his baptism.
John 1:33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.
Notice how John was reluctant to baptize Jesus knowing he was of God and without sin; the spotless lamb of God.
Matthew 3:14
But John tried to deter him, saying, I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?
John 1:29-30
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.
In the early Church there were heated discussions about the role of and the place of John the Baptist. Some thought John the Baptist himself was the Messiah. The evangelist had to tackle this issue. So we find narrations and incidents where John the Baptist is put in the second place. Luke goes still further that John the Baptist recognizes the supremacy of Jesus while he was still in his mothers womb. So we read the episodes that are connected with Jesus and John the Baptist, we have to look at them from this aspect. It is not only my opinion many Biblical scholars would think in that way.
Jupimartian
Ex-Protestant Christian
Christian missionaries...proclaim the good news...more like Manifest Destiny. Telling those 'savages' their culture is inferior to white Christian culture. Bleh!
Yeah I'm bitter about history and white privilege...
Anyway. Telling others to convert. One of my least favorite parts of religion. Push your unprovable stories on others. Even if they are living life to its fullest, tell them they are 'dead' and need to be 'reborn'. I am glad I do not think such things anymore. It's easier on my blood pressure to believe that what others believe doesn't matter and isn't my business.
Yeah I'm bitter about history and white privilege...
Anyway. Telling others to convert. One of my least favorite parts of religion. Push your unprovable stories on others. Even if they are living life to its fullest, tell them they are 'dead' and need to be 'reborn'. I am glad I do not think such things anymore. It's easier on my blood pressure to believe that what others believe doesn't matter and isn't my business.
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I wish to draw this out to address the "New Age" reference, since this seems to be a popular go-to with the more traditional conservative evangelical Christians when encountering any thing that touches on the mystical in Christianity. It seems to be used as a way to dismiss something different by branding it as like "New Age" beliefs.
The truth is that New Age beliefs have far more in common, are far more similar to mainline Christian thinking than true mystic traditions. I have said it many time, and accurately so, that New Age is really just "Experimental Christianity". I am not meaning to disrespect New Age, as I don't mean to disrespect traditional mainline Christian beliefs. But the commonality between them is simple. They each view God, or "Magic", or "the Force", or whatever term they prefer as wholly external to themselves.
Instead of praying to Jesus to intervene for them, to call down the power of God for their personal needs and desires, they use a pyramid, or use a mantra or pray to some idol lifted out of some other tradition as the means to get this external power to work the magic in their lives for them. Since they found it difficult to relate to that external power through the stale liturgies and beliefs of their local churches, they find a crystal pyramid to work better to get the external God to work for them. It's the same approach. The same mentality. Instead of Jesus doing it for them, they pray to the Universe, or some other form. Same basic belief, different symbols.
It is not reflective of the Wisdom traditions. The Wisdom traditions, the contemplative path, is all about moving beyond the symbols into direct, immediate, firsthand realization of God. God is no longer "out there", but "in here". God within, is not some symbol, but a realization of our very nature. God is now both out there and in here simultaneously. In fact, there is no division between out and in, but it is One. You are That.
This path requires a complete emptying of ones will into God. It requires death of self. This is not a "God, give me this, give me that", sort of externalized relationship. It is, "I die to you wholly," to be raised from death as a divine creature. I am no more. I am.
This is not New Age.
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