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Producing life from non living matter

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
life only comes from life!!!

That's logically impossible. Is the god you worship alive? If you say yes, then there is your example of life that didn't come from other life. If you say no, and you believe that life was divinely created, then you are proposing that the life on earth came from non-life

A very important thing to remember is; there is a greater chasm between the simplest living thing and the most complex non living things, than there is between the simplest living thing and man.

Is this an implied argument that life is too complex to exist undesigned and uncreated. I just showed the problem in the last post with trying to account for that by positing something even less likely to exist undesigned and uncreated.

What is the magnitude of the chasm between a cell and a god?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If one takes God to be consciousness, many of these issues are resolved.

Which of those problems do you think would be resolved, and what about the others?

If consciousness, time, the substance from which our universe is formed, and the laws that would allow a god to exist and act to manipulate it into a universe can all exist without a creator, then we have no need for the creator.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
if people can think god always existed why can't we think the universe always existed.

Exactly.

"God" is a placeholder concept - the name for the unseen cause of that which is seen. As you may well know, dark matter and dark energy have a similar status. They both are putative causes that are invoked to account for certain observations of ordinary matter and energy.

Once upon a time, we couldn't come up with any other answer for how our universe got to be here than an conscious, intelligent, and purposive agent, so the source of the universe was assigned those qualities.

Today, we have alternative hypotheses that don't require agency, and so we can no longer justify assigning our placeholder such qualities any more than we could justify attributing them to dark matter or dark energy.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Which of those problems do you think would be resolved, and what about the others?

If consciousness, time, the substance from which our universe is formed, and the laws that would allow a god to exist and act to manipulate it into a universe can all exist without a creator, then we have no need for the creator.

Before going further in this: do you have any familiarity with Vedanta?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
If life wasn't a product done by a creator, then what prevents us from creating it
the same way as it has been done by the unconscious nature.

This challenge was offered by God thousands years ago, as to create living creatures, can we?
We are getting closer and closer to being able to do this. It will probably be possible for us to create living organisms from non-living matter. No reason to think it is impossible.
 

Kirran

Premium Member

In a nutshell then, many of the problems you are coming up with here rely on a duality between creator and creation, and between creator and consciousness. If consciousness is at the basis of reality, and the creator (loosely referred) is consciousness, then your post #182 doesn't really apply.
 

Jedster

Well-Known Member
If one takes God to be consciousness, many of these issues are resolved.

@Kirran
Yes and even regarding the issues that are not (yet resolved), people would understand that they would have to use their own brains/senses and cooperate to solve said problems.
But alas, we as the human race have along way to go because many of us are too attached to our exclusivity.

(The only reason I joined the boy scouts was because I wanted the uniform, I was soon expelled :>))
 

Kirran

Premium Member
@Kirran
Yes and even regarding the issues that are not (yet resolved), people would understand that they would have to use their own brains/senses and cooperate to solve said problems.
But alas, we as the human race have along way to go because many of us are too attached to our exclusivity.

(The only reason I joined the boy scouts was because I wanted the uniform, I was soon expelled :>))

Did they let you keep the uniform?
 

Jedster

Well-Known Member
Did they let you keep the uniform?

They taught us how to use an axe for chopping wood, so I chopped open a door on a camp site, which wasn't well received.
I forget about the uniform. I think I began to discover girls who I found more interesting that uniforms.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
They taught us how to use an axe for chopping wood, so I chopped open a door on a camp site, which wasn't well received.
I forget about the uniform. I think I began to discover girls who I found more interesting that uniforms.

Hmm. Did you impress any girls through your door-destroying exploits?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In a nutshell then, many of the problems you are coming up with here rely on a duality between creator and creation, and between creator and consciousness. If consciousness is at the basis of reality, and the creator (loosely referred) is consciousness, then your post #182 doesn't really apply.

I don't see that.

Recall that FearGod asked, "If the stones were always existing, then from where did consciousness come from?" and I answered, "Not from a conscious agent. The problem of consciousness lets us know that even if gods exist, they cannot be the most fundamental aspect of reality, nor its source. For gods to exist and act, there already needed to be consciousness, time, and the natural laws that maintain their structural integrity."

Your answer has been roughly that if we equate God and consciousness, the claims there all become meaningless.

I think that you would have to develop that idea for it to be more than just a non sequitur for me. I can't get from your premise to conclusion. I realize that that may require more effort than you care to make, and it doesn't really speak to the topic.

I'm also having difficult understanding what it is that you actually discussing here. Are you imagining a conscious agent like in Western religions, but perhaps a more pantheistic or panentheistic formulation. Are you imagining a conscious creator of life on earth? I'm pretty sure that FearGod, who I believe is Muslim, is.

There may well be some conscious agency underlying reality, but assuming it doesn't seem justified since we can equally easily conceive of a metaphysics that doesn't require that assumption.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
We are getting closer and closer to being able to do this. It will probably be possible for us to create living organisms from non-living matter. No reason to think it is impossible.

You are not getting close and will never do it. It was tried several years ago and it failed--Miller, Urey.

Not only that, God did it ex nihilo. Today they have to start with what God has already created. Man can't even find the life in a simple seed. If life in a seed can't be found, how can it be found in lifeless elements. Creating life is far beyond the pay grade of even the most intelligent man.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
You are not getting close and will never do it. It was tried several years ago and it failed--Miller, Urey.

Not only that, God did it ex nihilo. Today they have to start with what God has already created. Man can't even find the life in a simple seed. If life in a seed can't be found, how can it be found in lifeless elements. Creating life is far beyond the pay grade of even the most intelligent man.
Why do you think just because they failed before that they won't be able to do it in the future? Why do you think it is "beyond the pay grade of even the most intelligent man"? It can't just be because we haven't done it yet, can it? That seems incredibly short cited.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You are not getting close

That is incorrect. Progress has been made at every level from the spontaneous formation of the monomers of large biomolecules to the formation of protocells encasing RNA in lipid bilayers. A great chain is being assembled that, when complete, will connect us from simple molecules like water and methane to living cells capable of biological evolution. Many links are still missing, but new t new ones are found continually.

and will never do it.

There is no reason to believe that man cannot create life de novo.

Do you recommend that the abiogeneisis researchers quit their work and go find other jobs? I've asked the question before, and the creationists decline to address it.

It was tried several years ago and it failed--Miller, Urey.

That experiment was not an attempt to create life, and it was a success.

Not only that, God did it ex nihilo.

That is logically impossible. One cannot affect something that doesn't exist. All one can do is to rearrange what already exists. If the universe came into being, it did so using some prior substance that already existed - a substance capable of generating universes from a piece of itself. And there is no logical necessity for that substance to be conscious.

While gods may exist - we cannot rule out the possibility - they are only one possible source of our universe, meaning that the idea is not needed. It's also not the best candidate hypothesis, it is unnecessarily complicated since it requires a conscious agent, which, in the hands of the Abrahamists, has been given a multitude of other qualities also not necessary to serve as a source for our universe such as omnipotence and omniscience. The multiverse hypothesis requires none of that.

Proposing a god solves no problems. It's a vestige of a time when we couldn't conceive of any alternate hypothesis. It was alone on the list of candidate hypothesis.

Since then, others have been added that, like the god hypothesis, can neither be ruled in or out. If you've done that, then you've done so without justification.
 
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