Proof Against Evolution

[crystalonyx]

Actually, it may appear on the surface that the evolution of intelligent life is “quite likely” since we’re here. However, the opposite could be true, we may have hit the “evolutionary lottery” so to speak, where conditions all came together to allow us to evolve that are very rare on a universal or at least galactic scale. Since we have not as yet detected intelligent life elsewhere, we don’t know the answer to this question. Finding and communicating with intelligent life elsewhere would indeed be a monumental event.

 

[painted wolf]

the problem with finding "intelligent" life is that we change the nature of "intelligence" to keep ourselves elevated above the rest of nature.

"Intelligent" used to be tool using... well we had to change that when we found out how many other species used tools.

"Intelligent" used to be the ability to communicate clear ideas vocally.... we had to change that when we discovered that other animals had the rudimentary beginings of language.

"Intelligent" used to be the ability to solve problems with abstract thinking... had to change that when it was shown that animals could solve such problems.

and so on...

We have lots of intelligent life here on Earth.

wa:do

 

[yossarian22]

the problem with finding "intelligent" life is that we change the nature of "intelligence" to keep ourselves elevated above the rest of nature.

"Intelligent" used to be tool using... well we had to change that when we found out how many other species used tools.

"Intelligent" used to be the ability to communicate clear ideas vocally.... we had to change that when we discovered that other animals had the rudimentary beginings of language.

"Intelligent" used to be the ability to solve problems with abstract thinking... had to change that when it was shown that animals could solve such problems.

and so on...

We have lots of intelligent life here on Earth.

wa:do

Are many animals capable of advanced symbolic manipulation?
That would be a good way to measure intelligence, though it makes an assumption as to what thought is.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Are many animals capable of advanced symbolic manipulation?
That would be a good way to measure intelligence, though it makes an assumption as to what thought is.

Define "advanced symbolic manipulation". Would bees communicating through dancing qualify? What about the communicative flashes between Carribean reef squids?

 

[painted wolf]

Cuttlefish have very advanced communication using color and pattern.
But I'm not sure that is what Yossarian is getting at...
I believe you are talking about writing? Am I correct?

Humans haven't always had "advanced symbolic manipulation" either by the by...
Would a Cromagnon era Homo sapien be less intelligent?
How about a Neanderthal or H. erectus?

As far as abstract imagery there is some evidence to support the idea that other great apes have some symbolic thinking. Possibly some birds as well, thanks to studies done with Alex and his understanding of zero.

wa:do

 

[tomspug]

The biggest difference I see between animals and humans is the knowledge of good and evil. All nature is bound by rules, but humans are the only ones that seem to be aware of them. Is there proof of a self-aware animal? Is awareness a matter of intelligence?

Apes, for instance, have high intelligence, enough to communicate, comprehend, and process in ways similar to humans, but is there any proof that they are capable of understanding that hurting someone is 'bad'? Furthermore, is there any proof that animals fear death like humans? Can apes imagine things that are not there already or have been already? These things seem to be exclusive to humans. And if that is the case, are every one of humanity's differences with the animal kingdom exclusively based on higher intelligence?

 

[yossarian22]

Define "advanced symbolic manipulation".Would bees communicating through dancing qualify? What about the communicative flashes between Carribean reef squids?

Well, communication by nature is symbolic, and serves as a poor metric.

Symbolic reasoning (very simply and very poorly put) is the ability of an animal (or computer program) to relate something abstract to something concrete, or vice versa.
It serves as the basis for some forms of artificial intelligence, as it is possible that thought is nothing more than the manipulation of symbols.

Advanced symbolic manipulation is very hard to define, and probably is subject to opinion. To me, it requires a few layers of complexity (symbols representing each other).
I am not sure how we could determine if an animal is capable of this.
I suspect many apes are.

 

[painted wolf]

Apes, for instance, have high intelligence, enough to communicate, comprehend, and process in ways similar to humans, but is there any proof that they are capable of understanding that hurting someone is 'bad'?

yup. chimps show altruism an understanding that helping one another is 'good'.
Chimpanzees Recruit the Best Collaborators -- Melis et al. 311 (5765): 1297 -- Science
Altruistic Helping in Human Infants and Young Chimpanzees -- Warneken and Tomasello 311 (5765): 1301 -- Science
They have been observed to care for sick or injured members of their groups.
They have at least as good a grasp of 'good' and 'bad' behavior as humans.

Furthermore, is there any proof that animals fear death like humans?

yes, chimps mourn the dead... mothers have been known to refuse to leave dead infants, grown daughters and sons have refused to leave their dead mothers. Chimps have stopped eating and wasted away due to the loss of a close friend or relative. This have been observed several times in both the wild and captivity.
Not only chimps but Elephants show this clearly. Elephants have been observed trying to prevent the death of an elderly member of the herd by trying to keep her on her feet. They took turns holding her up until she passed away and then they stayed with the body preventing predators from touching it until lack of food and water drove them to move on. When they returned they always stopped where the body had been and if there were any bones left they every member of the herd touched them.
Elephants have been known to carry the bones of dead relatives with them, sometimes for up to a year or more.

Can apes imagine things that are not there already or have been already?

Chimps can make up to 57 different types of tools out of natural materials... they can imagine the tool in the stick, rock or branch and make the tool from it.

These things seem to be exclusive to humans. And if that is the case, are every one of humanity's differences with the animal kingdom exclusively based on higher intelligence?

these things are not unique or exclusive to humans.

wa:do

 

[Azakel]

yup. chimps show altruism an understanding that helping one another is 'good'.
Chimpanzees Recruit the Best Collaborators -- Melis et al. 311 (5765): 1297 -- Science
Altruistic Helping in Human Infants and Young Chimpanzees -- Warneken and Tomasello 311 (5765): 1301 -- Science
They have been observed to care for sick or injured members of their groups.
They have at least as good a grasp of 'good' and 'bad' behavior as humans.

yes, chimps mourn the dead... mothers have been known to refuse to leave dead infants, grown daughters and sons have refused to leave their dead mothers. Chimps have stopped eating and wasted away due to the loss of a close friend or relative. This have been observed several times in both the wild and captivity.
Not only chimps but Elephants show this clearly. Elephants have been observed trying to prevent the death of an elderly member of the herd by trying to keep her on her feet. They took turns holding her up until she passed away and then they stayed with the body preventing predators from touching it until lack of food and water drove them to move on. When they returned they always stopped where the body had been and if there were any bones left they every member of the herd touched them.
Elephants have been known to carry the bones of dead relatives with them, sometimes for up to a year or more.


Chimps can make up to 57 different types of tools out of natural materials... they can imagine the tool in the stick, rock or branch and make the tool from it.

these things are not unique or exclusive to humans.

wa:do

That's really cool, I didn't know that about Elephants. And I've seen how animal get afraid and scared when they are close to dieing, just like you seen some people act the same way. Just something I have seen.

 

[tomspug]

Cool. Nice to learn new things.

My only question that went unanswered was about self-awareness. Although, I don't know if that's something you can test scientifically.

 

[painted wolf]

self-awereness used to be tested with the "mirror test"
can you reccognize that what you see in the mirror is you.

A lot of animals can pass this test... all the great apes, elephants, dolphins, some monkeys, rats, octopus... all know that the mirror shows themselves.

However this is a bad test for animals without steroscopic vision... such as deer, rabbits and horses. This is because they can not see properly in front of themselves or form good high depth images.

wa:do

 

[Azakel]

self-awereness used to be tested with the "mirror test"
can you reccognize that what you see in the mirror is you.

A lot of animals can pass this test... all the great apes, elephants, dolphins, some monkeys, rats, octopus... all know that the mirror shows themselves.

However this is a bad test for animals without steroscopic vision... such as deer, rabbits and horses. This is because they can not see properly in front of themselves or form good high depth images.

wa:do

What about Cats and Dogs. I had a cat that attacked the mirror the first time it saw itself in it, but not anymore.

 

[Smoke]

these things are not unique or exclusive to humans.

I think traits that are (a) exclusive to our species and (b) universal within our species, must be very few, and almost without exception physical ones.

 

[painted wolf]

What about Cats and Dogs. I had a cat that attacked the mirror the first time it saw itself in it, but not anymore.

Thats another reason the mirror test used much anymore. Did they learn that the reflection was themselves or did they learn it wasn't a threat?
That call is impossible to really make.

wa:do

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Thats another reason the mirror test used much anymore. Did they learn that the reflection was themselves or did they learn it wasn't a threat?
That call is impossible to really make.

wa:do

Anything a cat does is hard to figure.

 

[Azakel]

Thats another reason the mirror test used much anymore. Did they learn that the reflection was themselves or did they learn it wasn't a threat?
That call is impossible to really make.

wa:do

Ok, I'm not sure. Can't read there mind, and I see what you're saying.

Anything a cat does is hard to figure.

That's true(looks around at his 6 cats).

 

[McBell]

That's true(looks around at his 6 cats).

The thing with cats is that they used to be worshiped in Egypt...
...and they have not forgotten.

 

[Smoke]

Anything a cat does is hard to figure.

I think they must be self-aware; it's hard to explain their imperious attitude otherwise.

 

[butc8]

For those creationists who dont believe in evolution(They probably dont understand it). Evolution is similar to gravity, it is both fact and theory. Fact is evolution exists like gravity. Theory is on how it works like the general theory of relativity. If this makes any sense to you and want to continue studying it, wikipedia it. Watch heroes it makes evolution fun.

 

[NulliuSINverba]

My beleif- The Theory of Evolution is False, although some creatures do change over time, but not in a evolutionary way.

How do "some" creatures change over time ... "but not in an evolutionary way?"

Please expound on that! Why only "some?"

Evolution cannot explain the begining.

You'll note that Darwin's book was merely called The Origin of Species, not The Origin of Everything.