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Proof of evolution -at last-

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"Creationists, that have no clue when it comes to the sciences, do not count."

That is correct, but don't be offended.

For starters, when it comes to the scientific community, nobody but experts in a particular scientific field count. In the case of evolutionary theory, why would they care what creationists think? Even if creationists agreed with them, why would that matter to them? I happen to agree with them, and that is also irrelevant to them. They don't consider the theory one bit more sound because lay people agree with them than they would consider it less sound because creationists disagree. There simply is no debate except within the scientific community, and it is not over whether evolution is a correct theory or not. That's settled science among empiricists, whether experts or lay people.

Second, there is no value to the critical thinker in the creationist objection. If one wants to critique the science, he should demonstrate proficiency in it. He he wants to critique the reasoning connecting the evidence to the basic tenets of evolutionary theory, one needs to demonstrate proficiency in critical thinking and the evaluation of evidence. Creationists typically get the science wrong, misrepresent the claims of the scientists, and leave paragraphs of logical fallacies behind.

This thread is full of examples of this - "only a 5-year old could believe in abiogenesis or evolution," "no proof of genes morphing into a form that overtakes or changes from the form before," "I've come to the conclusion that there truly IS no real evidence supporting the theory," "evolution is a religion with no evidence," "discovery of fish in Japan I believe, said to be a new species -- they're still fish," "so called Scientists will make statements that Arti and Lucy is the final fact that humans evolved from hominids," "All observed change in all life at all levels and types at all times is sudden. All individuals are equally fit," etc.. (I hope that anonymously quoting posters in this thread isn't an RF violation; apologies if it is).

I assure you that as soon as a person knowledgeable about the science and the principles of critical thought sees a comment like any of these, he loses interest in the discussion except perhaps to correct the errors of fact and identify the logical fallacies. And this is perfectly reasonable. How much stock are you going to put in the opinions on Christianity from somebody who attributes the global flood of Genesis to Satan testing Noah's willingness to slay a son, or says that Sodom and Gomorrah were a couple of kids thrown out of a garden? When somebody makes mistakes as fundamental as those, you stop talking their opinions on your religion seriously, right? This is the same as that.

Tell me that evolution is only theory and not proven and you've immediately disqualified yourself as a collocutor to take seriously in the same way as the guy who screws up the scriptures. Incidentally, that's two mistakes, not one, and the mistakes are not that the theory of evolution is a theory (it is) or that the theory isn't proven (it isn't and never will be, unless by proof one means supported beyond reasonable doubt, which is presently the case).

Moreover, apologists have a different agenda - promoting their faith - and use different methods reflecting different values. Creationist apologetics have a poor reputation for honesty, and gravitate to any argument that seems to support their faith-based position while disregarding contradictory evidence. This manner of processing information is alien and antithetical to empiricism, which agenda is to discover what is demonstrably and reproducibly true about the world, and which derives sound conclusions by the proper application of reason to all relevant evidence wherever that might lead. People that do that are comfortable with evolution. People uncomfortable with evolution don't do that.

Another important difference: The scientists make their case for evolution without mention of creationism. They refer to the theory's ability to unify mountains of evidence. The theory accurately makes predictions about what can and cannot be found in nature. It provides a rational mechanism for evolution consistent with the known actions of nature. It accounts for both the commonality of all life as well as biodiversity. And it has had practical applications that have improved the human condition in areas like medicine and agriculture.

Creationists, by contrast, have no argument for creationism better than that life seems too complex to have evolved naturalistically to them, or that evolution can't be "proved"- already a reference to the science. The creationist argument virtually never mentions creationism. Perhaps that's because creationism can do none of the things the scientific theory as just described can. It has no predictive power and offers no mechanism. This is another reason for empiricists to disregard creationism. It has this in common with astrology, alchemy, and blood letting, and for the same reason - they're all predicated on a wrong idea about how the world works believed by faith, and they have all been replaced with empirical science that are useful (astronomy, chemistry, medicine). Creationism and evolution are another such pair, the first being faith-based and sterile, the second being empirically derived, and replacing it with an idea that bears fruit as described.

Anyway, I've had pleasant discussions with you in the past and consider you far from the worst offender here. I don't recall the thread to which you referred in your OP, but may I suggest that you not take these criticisms personally or have an emotional reaction to them. Creationists will never have standing with the empiricists in these discussions as long as they use words like evidence and reason rather than faith, nor should they. Tell the empiricist that this is what you believe because the Bible says so, and he'll likely tell you that he disagrees or less. Once the apologist gets into arguing the science and offering fallacious arguments, then there are grounds for rebuttal, which rebuttal should never be taken personally even if it contradicts a cherished belief, even if it sounds like blasphemy or impiety.
 

Mark Charles Compton

Pineal Peruser
So do lions rule over humans now? This is too funny, you really made this comment. :rolleyes:

Your obsession of rules and rulership could be an indicator to why you postulate.

However, if it decides not to, you cannot force a beast of nature to bend to your will:

The heartbreaking prison break of 'Tyke' the SINGLE & YOUNG elephant in Mozambique.
 

Yazata

Active Member
I recently posted a commentary titled "Darwin's Illusion".
Since I spoke more or less extemperaneously my comments reflected my sentiments rather than having the aspiration to be scientifically accurate in every way.

However, considering the small flood of "evidence" against my deliberations it seems I have to recant in shame and dishonor.

I replied to your post and argued that Charles Darwin never proposed any explanation of life's origins. I hope that I didn't come across as arrogant or hostile. I mean't no disrespect to you.

Thanks for the many comments that made clear to me that not being a biologist or a scientist of any description, and questioning the infallible opinions of scientists is a serious lack of diffidence.

It's an unfortunate fact that in our contemporary day and age, science is increasingly being used as an engine of authoritarianism. There's a widespread idea that laypeople are supposed to believe everything said in the name of science, on pain of being denounced as a "denier" (today's equivalent of "heathen").

Thus I apologise for having the audacity to doubt, even question, the holy grail of evolution and its prophet without having the necessary education and accreditation.

The problem is that few if any of those who replied arrogantly and insultingly to you have any specialist education in biology (or more to the point) the history and philosophy of biology themselves. They just believe and attack you for not believing as they do.

I don't like seeing atheists behaving like the religious evangelists they hate so passionately. When they do it in the name of science, it's even worse.

We hear a lot in our day about the importance of "celebrating diversity". Yet somehow that never seems to extend to intellectual diversity, to giving people the space to think differently or to believe different things.

Comments such as ...

"It astonishes me how anyone not living under a rock can be unaware of such a well supported, obvious, easily tested mechanism".
"Creationists, that have no clue when it comes to the sciences, do not count. You are listening to liars and idiots".
"Scientists have provided more than enough evidence for evolution".
"I think we have shown your ignorance about the matter and irrationality in discussing it that there is no chance your ideas will be taken serious by anyone".
"all papers support the core ideas, and thus confirm it, and no data contradicts it".
You have to prove that evolution is wrong, evolution is true, so it doesn't have to prove anything (my interpretation of this last comments).

...have really made me see the light.

They are just trying to overcome you with bluster, with expressions of their own faith. It's ironic since not so long ago it was the Bible preachers behaving the same way.

Or alternatively, should I wait until evolution becomes actually a real science rather ...
than (as one -pro evolution- comment puts it)
"an imaginative theory that many choose to accept at face value regardless of evidence against it" ?

Difficult question indeed.

The way I see it is that biological evolution by natural selection is an explanatory hypothesis. It makes sense of a huge body of observed data, from the fossil record, through comparative anatomy and biogeography, to comparative genomics. I think that it's extraordinarily plausible and I accept it as probable truth myself. It forms the basis of my thinking about biology and the history of life.

But that being said, I don't think that there's really any authoritarian obligation for nonspecialists to believe whatever they are told in the name of science. It isn't out of line to question it or to express doubts about it.

That's what much-vaunted critical thinking is all about. Avoidance of simple minded credulity and maintaining a questioning attitude.
 
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Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
So do lions rule over humans now? This is too funny, you really made this comment. :rolleyes:
Did I say anything about lions ruling man? No. Do you have a definition of what rule means or do you think it means slaughtering at will and staying your hand for no other reason that you believe you can?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
So, true. A friend of mine told me he could not possibly study stars development without knowing where the universe comes from. :)

The hard truth is that is obvious that you can hve evolution theory without assumptions about the start of life. Creationists like to incorrectly link the two because they are desperate. They try to link things we know a lot about with things we don’t know a lot about, even if they are non overlapping magisteria.

They just want to give their God of the gaps still a little chance, from that little corner He is still hiding today.

and that is nothing more than intellectual dishonesty.

ciao

- viole
Assumptions of life, that's interesting. Now now wonder why one has to assume something or other about how life on the earth got started. Maybe a martian can land and explain.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I replied to your post and argued that Charles Darwin never proposed any explanation of life's origins. I hope that I didn't come across as arrogant or hostile. I mean't no disrespect to you.



It's an unfortunate fact that in our contemporary day and age, science is increasingly being used as an engine of authoritarianism. There's a widespread idea that laypeople are supposed to believe everything said in the name of science, on pain of being denounced as a "denier" (today's equivalent of "heathen").



The problem is that few if any of those who replied arrogantly and insultingly to you have any specialist education in biology (or more to the point) the history and philosophy of biology themselves. They just believe and attack you for not believing as they do.

I don't like seeing atheists behaving like the religious evangelists they hate so passionately. When they do it in the name of science, it's even worse.

We hear a lot in our day about the importance of "celebrating diversity". Yet somehow that never seems to extend to intellectual diversity, to giving people the space to think differently or to believe different things.



They are just trying to overcome you with bluster, with expressions of their own faith. It's ironic since not so long ago it was the Bible preachers behaving the same way.



The way I see it is that biological evolution by natural selection is an explanatory hypothesis. It makes sense of a huge body of observed data, from the fossil record, through comparative anatomy and biogeography, to comparative genomics. I think that it's extraordinarily plausible and I accept it as probable truth myself. It forms the basis of my thinking about biology and the history of life.

But that being said, I don't think that there's really any authoritarian obligation for nonspecialists to believe whatever they are told in the name of science. It isn't out of line to question it or to express doubts about it.

That's what much vaunted critical thinking is all about. Avoidance of simple minded credulity and maintaining a questioning attitude.
Rather than a denier of evolution being thought of as heathen, seems that uneducated or stupid fits. But you're right in that someone who doesn't believe in the ToE is generally waved off as dumb.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Did I say anything about lions ruling man? No. Do you have a definition of what rule means or do you think it means slaughtering at will and staying your hand for no other reason that you believe you can?
Why do you think the pope is concerned that a nuclear war is possible and going to be devastating? It is said he doesn't deny evolution and evolution means death anyway.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It remains that your rejection of the ;science of evolution' is not based on science, but a religious agenda based on ancient scripture without science. You have utterly failed to present any 'scientific evidence that would bring the 'science of evolution' remotely in question.

Yes you are totally unqualified to question the 'science of evolution, based on your very very limited academic qualification.

By the way what was your major and university you attended? Based on your statements you have no background in genetics, paleontology, organic chemistry nor geology worth mentioning other than very basic course all college students take. The qualifications you mentioned do not measure up.






i
it remains that until I examined more thoroughly the theory yes, after I began to believe what the Bible says, I believed in evolution. Now I do not as the reason we are alive.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It doesn't take a genius to deduce that evolution is an attempt at describing the evolution AND origins of life.

The evolution of the universe has proceeded through a series of types of evolution. Yes, biological evolution (3) implies chemical evolution (2) (abiogenesis) preceding it, which in turn implies material evolution (1) preceding that to generate the chemical elements as when symmetry breaking generated the fundamental particles and forces, which eventually became galaxies of solar systems with solar furnaces making heavier heavier elements allowing chemical and then biological evolution might proceed.

And that isn't the end. Psychological evolution (4) proceeded in biological systems with brains, which awakened and then developed various mental faculties including reason and language. And that's still not the end. In human societies, cultural evolution (5) then became possible, as man tamed fire and eventually eventually developed great cities, the Internet and space travel.

So there is nothing special about the relationship of biological evolution and chemical evolution. Evolutionary theory depends on chemical evolution taking place, but one could just as well say that "It doesn't take a genius to deduce that abiogenesis is an attempt at describing abiogenesis AND origins of chemical matter" or "It doesn't take a genius to deduce that psychological evolution is an attempt at describing the evolution AND origins of mind" just as well.

There is no doubt that evolution must go back to its roots -- and mechanics -- in other words, abiogenesis. Anything that says otherwise is ridiculous as well as not being consistent with its own teachings.

It is no more necessary to have a theory of abiogenesis to study biological evolution than to have a theory of any of these five subjects to study the any of the other ones.

without God how can anything exist to begin with, how did anything get here? It didn’t make itself did it? Saying it was already here, really how if there is no God?

This is a special pleading fallacy, or unjustified double standard. You have a different standards for a god than for anything else, but can offer no justification for it. Everything else needs an explanation for its existence except God. There's no reason why whatever argument is offered for the existence of a God doesn't also apply to the existence of say the primordial seed that expanded to become the universe, or a multiverse that might have been its source if it had one. The multiverse and the primordial cosmic seed might have always exist uncreated like a deity.

There are plenty examples of justified double standards, such as different rules for children and adults, or different rules for citizens and noncitizens, but this is not one of them.

Would you say there is no spiritual realm because science cannot test it?

I would say that anything that is described as undetectable can be treated as nonexistent. Ask yourself what the difference is between something that exists and something that doesn't. The difference is the latter, the nonexistent, cannot affect the former, that which exists. That's what it means to say that nothing in this hypothetic realm can be detected empirically. It means that this realm is nonexistent.

Are you familiar with Sagan's dragon in the garage:

"Sagan offers a story concerning a fire-breathing dragon who lives in his garage. When he persuades a rational, open-minded visitor to meet the dragon, the visitor remarks that they are unable to see the creature. Sagan replies that he "neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon". The visitor suggests spreading flour on the floor so that the creature's footprints might be seen, which Sagan says is a good idea, "but this dragon floats in the air". When the visitor considers using an infrared camera to view the creature's invisible fire, Sagan explains that her fire is heatless. He continues to counter every proposed physical test with a reason why the test will not work. Sagan concludes by asking: "Now what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? "

What Sagan has done is to make his dragon undetectable by any means, and then asks how is this dragon different from a nonexistent dragon. Answer: It's not. It's only if this dragon can somehow affect the material world that it can be said to exist. When you say that there is a spiritual realm beyond detection, you're basically saying that it can be treated as nonexistent, since it has the same qualities of the nonexistent: none.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
The human is who pretends they are the God claiming identity how they changed an ape into the human.

Yet two bodies own their life.

Both bodies for thousands of years have had species sex owning their own babies.

So theists want to talk a discussion about dead things.

Human egotism looking for the substance in form claiming biology is the same type of energy that they remove from mass.

Looking for the holy grail the terminology.

Is who theists are supporting.

As we are consciousness and use memory and prove we get advised by pre terms that existed caused when biology had not existed. As human type consciousness.

We know I'm advising myself.

As scientists had changed human biology by mutative past life science causes themselves and wrote genesis exodus.

The same reason why any type human blood bone cell has existed mutated expressed today. Science caused it.

As you notice they don't claim what the ape self body had changed from ape like now. But not an ape or ape consciousness.

So as you pretend you are the God who knows it's why you should ask why do you claim you know. Seeing both natural bodies exist and live naturally.

Science says I am first correct by what I observe. Natural is observed first. So you don't even follow your own human Idealised science laws.

The basic truth is science is looking for the substance they claim is the creator.

Yet O the planet cell ended sealed held with our lifes water.

So I would ask your consciousness dependant on waters presence do you think you created God the planet yourself by conscious notification?

As it owns no sensible argument.
 

Neuropteron

Active Member
I replied to your post and argued that Charles Darwin never proposed any explanation of life's origins. I hope that I didn't come across as arrogant or hostile. I mean't no disrespect to you.



It's an unfortunate fact that in our contemporary day and age, science is increasingly being used as an engine of authoritarianism. There's a widespread idea that laypeople are supposed to believe everything said in the name of science, on pain of being denounced as a "denier" (today's equivalent of "heathen").



The problem is that few if any of those who replied arrogantly and insultingly to you have any specialist education in biology (or more to the point) the history and philosophy of biology themselves. They just believe and attack you for not believing as they do.

I don't like seeing atheists behaving like the religious evangelists they hate so passionately. When they do it in the name of science, it's even worse.

We hear a lot in our day about the importance of "celebrating diversity". Yet somehow that never seems to extend to intellectual diversity, to giving people the space to think differently or to believe different things.



They are just trying to overcome you with bluster, with expressions of their own faith. It's ironic since not so long ago it was the Bible preachers behaving the same way.



The way I see it is that biological evolution by natural selection is an explanatory hypothesis. It makes sense of a huge body of observed data, from the fossil record, through comparative anatomy and biogeography, to comparative genomics. I think that it's extraordinarily plausible and I accept it as probable truth myself. It forms the basis of my thinking about biology and the history of life.

But that being said, I don't think that there's really any authoritarian obligation for nonspecialists to believe whatever they are told in the name of science. It isn't out of line to question it or to express doubts about it.

That's what much-vaunted critical thinking is all about. Avoidance of simple minded credulity and maintaining a questioning attitude.
Hi,
I appreciate your comments.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I recently posted a commentary titled "Darwin's Illusion".
Since I spoke more or less extemperaneously my comments reflected my sentiments rather than having the aspiration to be scientifically accurate in every way.

However, considering the small flood of "evidence" against my deliberations it seems I have to recant in shame and dishonor.

Thanks for the many comments that made clear to me that not being a biologist or a scientist of any description, and questioning the infallible opinions of scientists is a serious lack of diffidence.

Thus I apologise for having the audacity to doubt, even question, the holy grail of evolution and its prophet without having the necessary education and accreditation.

Additionally, I realise now how impious of me not to be content with the undeniable truth -as many replies pointed out- consisting of at least 30.000 to 6 millions textual proof for evolution.

I see now, how lacking the necessary humility compeled me to ask for an example of evidence, and understand clearly why no one was willing to offer such evidence, since I obviously would not have understood it, but also I should have realised the need to unquestionably follow the majority in the face of such grandiose and uncontestable truths.

Wait!
there was one commentator that obviously took pity with my dismal ignorance.
He boldly (boldly because he stand alone in this endeavor) offered a solid source of evidence concerning the discoverie of Archaeopteryx, a transition from dinosaurs to birds. The akward fact that this example was made redundant by a group of critiks who declared it a fraud is compensated by the fact that another more enlightend group contested this judgement.

Comments such as ...

"It astonishes me how anyone not living under a rock can be unaware of such a well supported, obvious, easily tested mechanism".
"Creationists, that have no clue when it comes to the sciences, do not count. You are listening to liars and idiots".
"Scientists have provided more than enough evidence for evolution".
"I think we have shown your ignorance about the matter and irrationality in discussing it that there is no chance your ideas will be taken serious by anyone".
"all papers support the core ideas, and thus confirm it, and no data contradicts it".
You have to prove that evolution is wrong, evolution is true, so it doesn't have to prove anything (my interpretation of this last comments).

...have really made me see the light.
(my apologies for not including more similar and encouraging comments)

I understand now that I lacked reasoning power by proudly assuming that the onus of proof laid with scientist when in reality I was the one having to prove that evolution did not take place.

In the face of such an avalanche of "belief there is proof" and emotion for the support of evolution as for Darwing elegant launch to deconstruct the belief in a creator, I see no alternative but to bend to the wisdom of the multitude.
The masses might have been wrong during the flood, but it's just a myth, in real life the majority is alway right, right?

Your many comments made me appreciate the need to revaluate my allegiance and switch to unquestionably follow the teachings of scientists since they are so much smarter and educated than me. Judging by your comments dare I say even yourselves ?

The question I pose myself now is, should I follow science as a substiture for religion ?
Should I leave the narrow road I've been indoctrinated to walk on or rather follow the broad road with the rest of mainstream humanity?

Or alternatively, should I wait until evolution becomes actually a real science rather ...
than (as one -pro evolution- comment puts it)
"an imaginative theory that many choose to accept at face value regardless of evidence against it" ?

Difficult question indeed.
Well, I've no doubt that that was fun for you to write. And I'm sure you went to some effort, too!

Unfortunately, the effort you went to falls short of the effort to actually understand the science you are (lamely) lampooning by about 10,000 hours of study.

Never mind -- maybe you'll find time next week, when you're feeling less sarcastic.
 

Neuropteron

Active Member
That is correct, but don't be offended.

For starters, when it comes to the scientific community, nobody but experts in a particular scientific field count. In the case of evolutionary theory, why would they care what creationists think? Even if creationists agreed with them, why would that matter to them? I happen to agree with them, and that is also irrelevant to them. They don't consider the theory one bit more sound because lay people agree with them than they would consider it less sound because creationists disagree. There simply is no debate except within the scientific community, and it is not over whether evolution is a correct theory or not. That's settled science among empiricists, whether experts or lay people.

Second, there is no value to the critical thinker in the creationist objection. If one wants to critique the science, he should demonstrate proficiency in it. He he wants to critique the reasoning connecting the evidence to the basic tenets of evolutionary theory, one needs to demonstrate proficiency in critical thinking and the evaluation of evidence. Creationists typically get the science wrong, misrepresent the claims of the scientists, and leave paragraphs of logical fallacies behind.

This thread is full of examples of this - "only a 5-year old could believe in abiogenesis or evolution," "no proof of genes morphing into a form that overtakes or changes from the form before," "I've come to the conclusion that there truly IS no real evidence supporting the theory," "evolution is a religion with no evidence," "discovery of fish in Japan I believe, said to be a new species -- they're still fish," "so called Scientists will make statements that Arti and Lucy is the final fact that humans evolved from hominids," "All observed change in all life at all levels and types at all times is sudden. All individuals are equally fit," etc.. (I hope that anonymously quoting posters in this thread isn't an RF violation; apologies if it is).

I assure you that as soon as a person knowledgeable about the science and the principles of critical thought sees a comment like any of these, he loses interest in the discussion except perhaps to correct the errors of fact and identify the logical fallacies. And this is perfectly reasonable. How much stock are you going to put in the opinions on Christianity from somebody who attributes the global flood of Genesis to Satan testing Noah's willingness to slay a son, or says that Sodom and Gomorrah were a couple of kids thrown out of a garden? When somebody makes mistakes as fundamental as those, you stop talking their opinions on your religion seriously, right? This is the same as that.

Tell me that evolution is only theory and not proven and you've immediately disqualified yourself as a collocutor to take seriously in the same way as the guy who screws up the scriptures. Incidentally, that's two mistakes, not one, and the mistakes are not that the theory of evolution is a theory (it is) or that the theory isn't proven (it isn't and never will be, unless by proof one means supported beyond reasonable doubt, which is presently the case).

Moreover, apologists have a different agenda - promoting their faith - and use different methods reflecting different values. Creationist apologetics have a poor reputation for honesty, and gravitate to any argument that seems to support their faith-based position while disregarding contradictory evidence. This manner of processing information is alien and antithetical to empiricism, which agenda is to discover what is demonstrably and reproducibly true about the world, and which derives sound conclusions by the proper application of reason to all relevant evidence wherever that might lead. People that do that are comfortable with evolution. People uncomfortable with evolution don't do that.

Another important difference: The scientists make their case for evolution without mention of creationism. They refer to the theory's ability to unify mountains of evidence. The theory accurately makes predictions about what can and cannot be found in nature. It provides a rational mechanism for evolution consistent with the known actions of nature. It accounts for both the commonality of all life as well as biodiversity. And it has had practical applications that have improved the human condition in areas like medicine and agriculture.

Creationists, by contrast, have no argument for creationism better than that life seems too complex to have evolved naturalistically to them, or that evolution can't be "proved"- already a reference to the science. The creationist argument virtually never mentions creationism. Perhaps that's because creationism can do none of the things the scientific theory as just described can. It has no predictive power and offers no mechanism. This is another reason for empiricists to disregard creationism. It has this in common with astrology, alchemy, and blood letting, and for the same reason - they're all predicated on a wrong idea about how the world works believed by faith, and they have all been replaced with empirical science that are useful (astronomy, chemistry, medicine). Creationism and evolution are another such pair, the first being faith-based and sterile, the second being empirically derived, and replacing it with an idea that bears fruit as described.

Anyway, I've had pleasant discussions with you in the past and consider you far from the worst offender here. I don't recall the thread to which you referred in your OP, but may I suggest that you not take these criticisms personally or have an emotional reaction to them. Creationists will never have standing with the empiricists in these discussions as long as they use words like evidence and reason rather than faith, nor should they. Tell the empiricist that this is what you believe because the Bible says so, and he'll likely tell you that he disagrees or less. Once the apologist gets into arguing the science and offering fallacious arguments, then there are grounds for rebuttal, which rebuttal should never be taken personally even if it contradicts a cherished belief, even if it sounds like blasphemy or impiety.
Hi,
Thank you for your interesting reply.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Meanwhile: At the moment just before he throws his boulder at the silly homo sapiens sapiens postulating themselves at the base of his favorite ant mound the Orangutan is the spitting image of Atlas. :eek:
You might think we owe our lives to other humans. In a sense that's true. Otoh, evolution means death of the being.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Why do you think the pope is concerned that a nuclear war is possible and going to be devastating? It is said he doesn't deny evolution and evolution means death anyway.
Evolution does not mean death. I have a difficult time understanding your point at times.
 
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