Proof of Islam?

[Tokita]

Salaam, as a Muslim I disagree with you here.

You can ask in Jesus' name, just as with other Prophets and with the Ahlulbayt. All of these figures have concealed intercessory roles. Jesus in NT texts speaks both openly and concealed, understanding what he is actually saying takes work.

On the Day of Judgement, the Prophets and their Imams/Disciples will be there to testify for or against us.

Jesus is not God but he is a manifestation of the first created light (al-Nur) by God, which has appeared to us giving the Path (as-Sirat al-Mustaqim) to salvation since Adam all the way to Muhammad. Some Prophets brought law, others brought warning and chastisement of the rebellious, others brought wisdom.
Jesus for instance, didn't bring a law (rather he confirmed the Batin of the Torah) but he did bring warning of the Day of Judgement, and he chastised the Pharisees and Sadducee of their hypocrisy and additions to Torah, and he brought wisdom in the form of his concealed parables.

Hope that helps you understand more

Who is the Son of God? Matt 15-17:
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

Who is everlasting? Matt 28:20
20 teaching them to observe all that pI have commanded you. And behold, qI am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Who is Luke talking about? in Luke 1:32
32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,

James 2:1 2 My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism.

You may come back and argue that the Bible was corrupted, but until now no one can prove one word is out line. Qumaran Scrolls written 500 years before Jesus are exactly what we have today.

I am not going to argue about the Quran because I know Muslims defend it and deny all historical facts that speak other than what in between its pages. In the past I quoted Alrazi, whom I ask that you read.

As a Christian I believe I cannot change people's heart - I can only witness to the truth. The work of the Holy Spirit will change hearts - as I have personally seen it in my own life and several others.

I will close with John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

We will all find out at the real truth eventually. I can only see the Truth of the Good News in Christ alone.

 

[EsonauticSage]

Hi

You may come back and argue that the Bible was corrupted, but until now no one can prove one word is out line. Qumaran Scrolls written 500 years before Jesus are exactly what we have today.

Qumran scrollls are not the New Testament, and the Old Testament content is not identical to the Masoretic text.

 

[EsonauticSage]

You may come back and argue that the Bible was corrupted

Actually on this:
Textual variants in the New Testament - Wikipedia
List of major textual variants in the New Testament - Wikipedia
That is the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Tokita]

Hi



Qumran scrollls are not the New Testament, and the Old Testament content is not identical to the Masoretic text.

In Christianity, the Old Testament reveals the New Testament and the New Testament is hidden in the Old Testament.
Here is a passage that describes Jesus and what He will do. It is found in Isaiah 53, which is found in Qumaran Scrolls. Although Muhammad erroneously claimed that the Jewish Torah was corrupted as well.

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[EsonauticSage]

In Christianity, the Old Testament reveals the New Testament and the New Testament is hidden in the Old Testament.
Here is a passage that describes Jesus and what He will do. It is found in Isaiah 53, which is found in Qumaran Scrolls. Although Muhammad erroneously claimed that the Jewish Torah was corrupted as well.

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Your post has nothing to do with my reply but: Servant songs - Wikipedia

 

[VoidoftheSun]

Who is the Son of God? Matt 15-17:
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

Who is everlasting? Matt 28:20
20 teaching them to observe all that pI have commanded you. And behold, qI am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Who is Luke talking about? in Luke 1:32
32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,

James 2:1 2 My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism.

You may come back and argue that the Bible was corrupted, but until now no one can prove one word is out line. Qumaran Scrolls written 500 years before Jesus are exactly what we have today.

I am not going to argue about the Quran because I know Muslims defend it and deny all historical facts that speak other than what in between its pages. In the past I quoted Alrazi, whom I ask that you read.

As a Christian I believe I cannot change people's heart - I can only witness to the truth. The work of the Holy Spirit will change hearts - as I have personally seen it in my own life and several others.

I will close with John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

We will all find out at the real truth eventually. I can only see the Truth of the Good News in Christ alone.

Son is only a title, it's not literal.
Jesus is a creation of the Word and contains in him the Holy Spirit. He was a special figure and we don't deny that.
There is a lot to unpack though if you are genuine to want to understand the Islamic view.

The Bible is not seen in the way you see it, I wouldn't say it was corrupted necessarily to the extent a lot of people say it is (though plenty of things have been added to it which shows in the earliest manuscripts) but what it actually is, is a different matter to what you believe it is as a library of inspired texts.

To have a proper intellectual conversation with you about this would require a lot of unpacking of both the Bible and it's history, as well as an elucidation of the complexity of the Islamic view according to Qur'an and Hadith.

For one, we believe Salvation is transhistorical and not bound to one person. We don't believe Jesus exclusively offers salvation, we believe that this is the role of all Prophets (not through themselves but through their revelations, though they do intercede for us). Jesus did embody a high station, alike our own Imam Ali (pbuh).
For Moses, he wrote down the Word of God (Deuteronomy), for Jesus he embodied the Word of God (in his Sunnah, his words and actions), for Muhammad the recitation (Qur'an) itself is the Word of God.
We have a progression between these three figures.

As for the Crucifixion, we don't necessarily disagree with it. It's not an unanimous topic, it depends on one's school of though because the Quranic passages alone are too vague. There is a lot of subtlety around it too, but again, it depends if you're interested in proper intellectual conversation or whether you just want to preach.

If you want to preach, then I'm out of the conversation.


Either way, God bless.

 

[Muffled]

The Bible does not support that belief. Jesus never claimed to be God in the flesh. Christianity made that claim.

I believe you must not understand the Bible because you do not have the Holy Spirit.

 

[Muffled]

That does not change the fact that caring about being saved is selfish.

“WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise.... Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God.

That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.

Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God’s good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God’s favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 77-78

I believe in worshiping God because He is God. I am not ashamed that my God wants me to be saved as much as I wish to be saved. In this we are in harmony.

 

[Muffled]

Don't say that, because if I am not saved, that too will be because of God's deeds done by his power.
Do you think the deeds of Stalin, Hitler, Franco, Mugabe, were God's deeds done by his power?
If the worship should be without fear of fire or hope of paradise, then why even talk about them?

I do not believe that is so. I don't buy the "God made me do it" BS.

No.

I believe it is God's will to consider them. How can a person say he worships God and not listen to what He says.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I believe on will never be saved by ones deeds. If I am saved by deeds it is because they are God's deeds done by His power.

Don't say that, because if I am not saved, that too will be because of God's deeds done by his power.
Do you think the deeds of Stalin, Hitler, Franco, Mugabe, were God's deeds done by his power?
If the worship should be without fear of fire or hope of paradise, then why even talk about them?

I do not believe that is so. I don't buy the "God made me do it" BS.
No.
I believe it is God's will to consider them. How can a person say he worships God and not listen to what He says.

Again don't say that because in the other post you had written exactly that. Coloring the lines differently does not hide that.

 

[Tokita]

Son is only a title, it's not literal.
Jesus is a creation of the Word and contains in him the Holy Spirit. He was a special figure and we don't deny that.
There is a lot to unpack though if you are genuine to want to understand the Islamic view.

The Bible is not seen in the way you see it, I wouldn't say it was corrupted necessarily to the extent a lot of people say it is (though plenty of things have been added to it which shows in the earliest manuscripts) but what it actually is, is a different matter to what you believe it is as a library of inspired texts.

To have a proper intellectual conversation with you about this would require a lot of unpacking of both the Bible and it's history, as well as an elucidation of the complexity of the Islamic view according to Qur'an and Hadith.

For one, we believe Salvation is transhistorical and not bound to one person. We don't believe Jesus exclusively offers salvation, we believe that this is the role of all Prophets (not through themselves but through their revelations, though they do intercede for us). Jesus did embody a high station, alike our own Imam Ali (pbuh).
For Moses, he wrote down the Word of God (Deuteronomy), for Jesus he embodied the Word of God (in his Sunnah, his words and actions), for Muhammad the recitation (Qur'an) itself is the Word of God.
We have a progression between these three figures.

As for the Crucifixion, we don't necessarily disagree with it. It's not an unanimous topic, it depends on one's school of though because the Quranic passages alone are too vague. There is a lot of subtlety around it too, but again, it depends if you're interested in proper intellectual conversation or whether you just want to preach.

If you want to preach, then I'm out of the conversation.


Either way, God bless.

I have to disagree with most of your arguments. Firstly, Islam is never complex. It portrays God as a human. It portrays Him as a person who is a tyrant and demanding of good behaviour and anyone who disagrees with Him or His prophet dies. You mentioned the Hadith, I have studied Islam and willing to discuss both the Quran and Hadith. The unfortunate thing, it is not an easy thing to talk about for most Muslims. The Hadith includes statements that are too offensive to include in this Forum - and that is unfortunate.

Humans don't understand nature (quantum mechanics, the possibility of multi-universe, you name it.) much less to understand the complexity of God. Muslims believe that God humiliates Himself if He becomes human. Who says and on what grounds - other than a human on human grounds? If one cannot believe that God can choose to be and become anything He wishes, they would be taking away His omnipotence. There is no limit (except of course in the human mind) as to what God can be and can do. If He chooses to come a human who are we to tell Him "you cannot"?

The bottom line is, we are all humans with One Creator. I believe an intelligent creator wants us to know Him and be like Him rather than just create and punish. God is never defined and it is heretical to limit Him in any way or fashion.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe you must not understand the Bible because you do not have the Holy Spirit.

I do not believe anyone has the Holy Spirit living inside their bodies. The Holy Spirit was the Bounty of God sent by God to Jesus and the Holy Spirit was later reflected in the reality of the Apostles.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?
Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

Some Answered Questions, p. 108

25: THE HOLY SPIRIT

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe in worshiping God because He is God. I am not ashamed that my God wants me to be saved as much as I wish to be saved. In this we are in harmony.

I do not believe there is anything to be saved from except our lower material nature.
God wants us to be saved from that.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have to disagree with most of your arguments. Firstly, Islam is never complex. It portrays God as a human. It portrays Him as a person who is a tyrant and demanding of good behaviour and anyone who disagrees with Him or His prophet dies. You mentioned the Hadith, I have studied Islam and willing to discuss both the Quran and Hadith. The unfortunate thing, it is not an easy thing to talk about for most Muslims. The Hadith includes statements that are too offensive to include in this Forum - and that is unfortunate.

It does not matter what Muslims believe, it only matters what Muhammad said. Can you show me where the Qur'an it says God is a human, a tyrant and demanding of good behaviour and anyone who disagrees with Him or His prophet dies?

The Hadiths are not the words of Muhammad, they are human sayings.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

I have to disagree with most of your arguments. Firstly, Islam is never complex. It portrays God as a human. It portrays Him as a person who is a tyrant and demanding of good behaviour and anyone who disagrees with Him or His prophet dies. You mentioned the Hadith, I have studied Islam and willing to discuss both the Quran and Hadith. The unfortunate thing, it is not an easy thing to talk about for most Muslims. The Hadith includes statements that are too offensive to include in this Forum - and that is unfortunate.

Humans don't understand nature (quantum mechanics, the possibility of multi-universe, you name it.) much less to understand the complexity of God. Muslims believe that God humiliates Himself if He becomes human. Who says and on what grounds - other than a human on human grounds? If one cannot believe that God can choose to be and become anything He wishes, they would be taking away His omnipotence. There is no limit (except of course in the human mind) as to what God can be and can do. If He chooses to come a human who are we to tell Him "you cannot"?

The bottom line is, we are all humans with One Creator. I believe an intelligent creator wants us to know Him and be like Him rather than just create and punish. God is never defined and it is heretical to limit Him in any way or fashion.

You do not speak from good-faith, you speak from ignorance.

The entire history of Islamic theology, hermenuetics, philosophy etc strongly disagrees about your statement of no complexity, the opposite is true.

God has no likeness, God is so different from everything that calling God a deity is also not entirely correct - let alone your hilarious "human" comment.

As Surah 16:74 says: "So do not give likeness for God: indeed God knows and you do not know."

I do wonder if you've read the Torah before though because you're in for a heart attack So much so that some of the early Christians rejected that the "god of the old testament" was the same God of whom Jesus came from. Check out Marcionism.

There is no "The Hadith", there are hadith. They have a system of verification, just because it's a hadith doesn't make it authentic, Islam has never held that position. Only the Qur'an is wholly authentic, as it is God's word.
Hadith are large multi-volume compilation collections of sayings with chains of transmission.

No, Muslims believe that God is reality itself (al-Haqq, Haqiqa), and that there is discontinuity between God's all-pervading absoluteness and the doctrine of incarnation as espoused by Christians. Jesus was not uncreated, he was a created being.
The only way you can get around it is if you say that all things are God, but that contradicts the doctrine of God having no similitude, being utterly transcendent.

The religion of Abraham is very opposite what you are saying with God incarnating, the Egyptians believed that their deities incarnated in the Pharoahs, Vaishnavite Hindus believe that Vishnu incarnated ten times.
It's not a unique concept and it's not an Abrahamic concept.


As I've already said: If you want to preach, then I'm out of the conversation.
But you didn't seem to notice I said that.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

Can you show me where the Qur'an it says God is a human, a tyrant and demanding of good behaviour and anyone who disagrees with Him or His prophet dies?

And they'll have no actual answer for that.

 

[Tokita]

It does not matter what Muslims believe, it only matters what Muhammad said. Can you show me where the Qur'an it says God is a human, a tyrant and demanding of good behaviour and anyone who disagrees with Him or His prophet dies?

The Hadiths are not the words of Muhammad, they are human sayings.

Your statement above is 99% false because the Hafdiths are the RECORDED saying of Muhammad. They were authenticated as true and credible. In fact, the Hadith of Albukhari is considered second to the Quran. Everything Muhammad said was meant to be from Allah. Explaining otherwise would be very misleading and to many Muslims heretical.

The Quran does not have to say that Allah is portrayed as a human in Islam. One only has to look at the words and actions.

I have already argued the following Surahs with some of my Muslim friends (open-minded ones). Most likely you will not say anything I haven't already heard or know. Chocolate coating these by saying they are taken out of context or misinterpreted is false teaching. They speak for themselves like many others.

Surah 3:151: “We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve (all non-Muslims) ...”

Surah 2:191: “And kill them (non-Muslims) wherever you find them ... kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers (non-Muslims).”

Surah 9:5: “Then kill the disbelievers (non-Muslims) wherever you find them, capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush ..

Surah 2:190" You shall fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not aggress; God does not like the aggressors."

Surah 9:5 "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free.
Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful"

 

[Tokita]

You do not speak from good-faith, you speak from ignorance.

The entire history of Islamic theology, hermenuetics, philosophy etc strongly disagrees about your statement of no complexity, the opposite is true.

God has no likeness, God is so different from everything that calling God a deity is also not entirely correct - let alone your hilarious "human" comment.

As Surah 16:74 says: "So do not give likeness for God: indeed God knows and you do not know."

I do wonder if you've read the Torah before though because you're in for a heart attack So much so that some of the early Christians rejected that the "god of the old testament" was the same God of whom Jesus came from. Check out Marcionism.

There is no "The Hadith", there are hadith. They have a system of verification, just because it's a hadith doesn't make it authentic, Islam has never held that position. Only the Qur'an is wholly authentic, as it is God's word.
Hadith are large multi-volume compilation collections of sayings with chains of transmission.

No, Muslims believe that God is reality itself (al-Haqq, Haqiqa), and that there is discontinuity between God's all-pervading absoluteness and the doctrine of incarnation as espoused by Christians. Jesus was not uncreated, he was a created being.
The only way you can get around it is if you say that all things are God, but that contradicts the doctrine of God having no similitude, being utterly transcendent.

The religion of Abraham is very opposite what you are saying with God incarnating, the Egyptians believed that their deities incarnated in the Pharoahs, Vaishnavite Hindus believe that Vishnu incarnated ten times.
It's not a unique concept and it's not an Abrahamic concept.


As I've already said: If you want to preach, then I'm out of the conversation.
But you didn't seem to notice I said that.

With all that you say - simply consider the actions of all of the Muslim world. Then and only them you might understand Islam better.

As for the Torah, it is not the word of God. Yes, there are things within its pages that may seem offensive to be included in the Holy Book. The Torah includes recorded events that showed us how God came into our lives, how we came to know Him, and how sinful man is, including the prophets. Islam does not consider that prophets sin, and consider Muhammad pure and sinless. The Torah showed us that because of our sinful nature how desperately need a savior.
The new Testament shows us the true nature of God. He revealed Himself to us - humbled Himself and became like us. He showed us that He is truly loving, caring, and sacrificial who cares about all humanity. Matt 11:28 Jesus said: "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." This is my true loving God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your statement above is 99% false because the Hafdiths are the RECORDED saying of Muhammad. They were authenticated as true and credible. In fact, the Hadith of Albukhari is considered second to the Quran. Everything Muhammad said was meant to be from Allah. Explaining otherwise would be very misleading and to many Muslims heretical.

I do not know enough about Islam to dispute anything you are saying but also do not know enough to agree with what you are saying. As a Baha'i, I have no dog in this fight between Muslims and Christians. To me, both are divinely revealed religions, but Christianity went way off track early on. Islam also went off track when it split into sects, so there is no way to really know what Muhammad taught now, unless we refer to the Qur'an, all of it, not just cherry picked passages that are vain attempts to make Muhammad look bad.

 

[Tokita]

I do not know enough about Islam to dispute anything you are saying but also do not know enough to agree with what you are saying. As a Baha'i, I have no dog in this fight between Muslims and Christians. To me, both are divinely revealed religions, but Christianity went way off track early on. Islam also went off track when it split into sects, so there is no way to really know what Muhammad taught now, unless we refer to the Qur'an, all of it, not just cherry picked passages that are vain attempts to make Muhammad look bad.

I highly recommend that you read the Quran and Hadith. I that recommendation to all people. In fact, I advocated teaching this religion in schools. I know well if taught with an open mind, that is to say without cherry-picking, no intelligent person will believe in it.
As for the Baha'i religion, I do have great respect for many reasons one of which the equality between men and women. I also admire Bahaullah, His son Abdulbaha, and Shogi Afandi. I consider Bahullah a great philosopher and a great man in history, a prophet who tried to give meaning to One God and One Religion. The Book of Certitude is a work of genius. I was first introduced to Bahaism by reading Thief in the Night by William Seers.

I do not believe, however, that all religions are the same and they are simply misinterpreted. If you read the Quran and Hadith you will find out why. I also do believe in the resurrection of Christ - Bahaiis do not. Unlike Islam, Bahaism is the most peaceful religion on earth.

Do not take my words or anyone else's regarding Islam. Simply access and read the resources yourself. I know you will see what you have not been taught.