Thanks for the reply and your story. Before I begin, please know it is NEVER my intent to attack or insult you personally. I do sometimes go after beliefs, but it is not intended to denigrate you on a personal level. “Lord” knows we all have beliefs that are questionable to others. Further, as I tell my children, if I EVER say something that you think is wrong, I actively encourage you to call me out on it! One of my favorite quotes relating to business is, “If two people in a business always agree, one of them isn’t necessary!” Disagreements followed by civil discussion is where the real growth happens. As long as you can back your claims using Logic, Reason &/or Evidence (what a dub the “Secular Trinity”), I will be all ears! Now to the reply !
\\”The context is that he had a spiritual experience”\\ Without even knowing the person or the “experience”, I have little to no doubt that he truly experienced it. But sadly, his “experience” is irrelevant when it comes to the facts. It has been well established that the human brain is notoriously easy to trick, especially in times of stress. Quick side story I encountered reference “personal experience” [Feel free to skip to next paragraph if you choose with no hard feelings]; About 5 years ago, we had a guest pastor speak to the congregation (I go to church every week with my wife and 3 small children pending Covid restrictions). The pastor told us of a recent Missionary trip to Africa and he relayed the story that while in Africa (Kenya I believe), he awoke early one morning while it was still dark outside and there was a demon standing at the foot of his bed. This demon had paralyzed the pastor he couldn’t talk or move and the pastor “just knew” the demon was there to stop his good Missionary work. This pastor was a nice rational guy and I had no reason to believe he wasn’t telling the truth. Did he see I demon standing at the foot of his bed? I sincerely believe he absolutely did!!! But that’s not the relevant question is it?!? The question should be… WAS there a demon standing at the foot of his bed?!? I suspect NOT. Sleep paralysis is a common sleep disorder that cause paralysis as well as visual and sometimes auditory hallucinations. This pastor was in a foreign country eating strange foods in a religiously charged environment. Was there a demon standing at the foot of his bed… I doubt it… But in my 10 years plus of sincere discussion with theists, it always… ALWAYS circles back to “personal revelation” / “I just KNOW”. But it is also always single person. Never any witnesses… never anything other than personal hear-say.
Your story also starts out in a “religiously charged” time of life for you. And FTR, I am always hesitant to discuss religion / beliefs and point out where I feel they are wrong with individuals who are clinging to their beliefs for support. The last thing I want to do is tear down someone’s beliefs if that is all they have. FWIW, I did a little research into Baha'u'llah and agree 100% with the idea of universal peace and unity among all races, nations, and religions just as I have found many good teachings in most of the religions I have studied. However, NONE of the good teachings of any religion RELYS on religion! i.e. All of the teachings, “Do not kill”, “Do not steal”, “World Peace”, ad nauseum can be achieved from a secular angle and no gods are needed! I have asked this question and heard this question many times without a satisfactory… or any answer for that matter… What good thing can ONLY be done in the name of religion that cannot be done from a secular angle?
\\”I like talking to atheists because most of them are very sincere people, they just don't see any evidence for God. But also I have an atheist bent, although I never doubted God’s existence for one minute.“\\ Well I can’t speak for all atheists but agree, as a group, we are inherently curious with a heavy bent on skepticism and evidence. I enjoy talking with ANYONE as long as they are sincere and interested in a *conversation* as opposed to preaching. I too was an introvert my entire childhood through undergraduate schooling. I then went in the military for the college fund and was effectively taken out of my shell and have been an extrovert ever since… but I “get it”! I find it amazing that you have NEVER questioned god’s existence as there is so much to doubt! Do you agree that “a claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”?!? How is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnisapient, omnipresent, omnitemporal, transcendent entity anything BUT “extraordinary”?!? And excuse me if I missed something, but it seems your soul reason for believing revolved around personal experience alone. Did I miss something. And not to put the cart before the horse but If it *is* just “personal experience”, what validates your personal experience about every other theists “personal experience” of a different religion / god?
I love reading and at work, typically have time to read between appointments so feel free to write as much as you want ! I do however tend to limit my screen time / social media to my work hours as when I am home, I try to spend the lion’s share of time with my wife and 3 awesome children ! Thanks again and hope you have a wonderful and safe weekend!!!
Thanks for the reply and your story. Before I begin, please know it is NEVER my intent to attack or insult you personally. I do sometimes go after beliefs, but it is not intended to denigrate you on a personal level. “Lord” knows we all have beliefs that are questionable to others. Further, as I tell my children, if I EVER say something that you think is wrong, I actively encourage you to call me out on it! One of my favorite quotes relating to business is, “If two people in a business always agree, one of them isn’t necessary!” Disagreements followed by civil discussion is where the real growth happens. As long as you can back your claims using Logic, Reason &/or Evidence (what a dub the “Secular Trinity”), I will be all ears! Now to the reply !
\\”The context is that he had a spiritual experience”\\ Without even knowing the person or the “experience”, I have little to no doubt that he truly experienced it. But sadly, his “experience” is irrelevant when it comes to the facts. It has been well established that the human brain is notoriously easy to trick, especially in times of stress. Quick side story I encountered reference “personal experience” [Feel free to skip to next paragraph if you choose with no hard feelings]; About 5 years ago, we had a guest pastor speak to the congregation (I go to church every week with my wife and 3 small children pending Covid restrictions). The pastor told us of a recent Missionary trip to Africa and he relayed the story that while in Africa (Kenya I believe), he awoke early one morning while it was still dark outside and there was a demon standing at the foot of his bed. This demon had paralyzed the pastor he couldn’t talk or move and the pastor “just knew” the demon was there to stop his good Missionary work. This pastor was a nice rational guy and I had no reason to believe he wasn’t telling the truth. Did he see I demon standing at the foot of his bed? I sincerely believe he absolutely did!!! But that’s not the relevant question is it?!? The question should be… WAS there a demon standing at the foot of his bed?!? I suspect NOT. Sleep paralysis is a common sleep disorder that cause paralysis as well as visual and sometimes auditory hallucinations. This pastor was in a foreign country eating strange foods in a religiously charged environment. Was there a demon standing at the foot of his bed… I doubt it… But in my 10 years plus of sincere discussion with theists, it always… ALWAYS circles back to “personal revelation” / “I just KNOW”. But it is also always single person. Never any witnesses… never anything other than personal hear-say.
Your story also starts out in a “religiously charged” time of life for you. And FTR, I am always hesitant to discuss religion / beliefs and point out where I feel they are wrong with individuals who are clinging to their beliefs for support. The last thing I want to do is tear down someone’s beliefs if that is all they have. FWIW, I did a little research into Baha'u'llah and agree 100% with the idea of universal peace and unity among all races, nations, and religions just as I have found many good teachings in most of the religions I have studied. However, NONE of the good teachings of any religion RELYS on religion! i.e. All of the teachings, “Do not kill”, “Do not steal”, “World Peace”, ad nauseum can be achieved from a secular angle and no gods are needed! I have asked this question and heard this question many times without a satisfactory… or any answer for that matter… What good thing can ONLY be done in the name of religion that cannot be done from a secular angle?
\\”I like talking to atheists because most of them are very sincere people, they just don't see any evidence for God. But also I have an atheist bent, although I never doubted God’s existence for one minute.“\\ Well I can’t speak for all atheists but agree, as a group, we are inherently curious with a heavy bent on skepticism and evidence. I enjoy talking with ANYONE as long as they are sincere and interested in a *conversation* as opposed to preaching. I too was an introvert my entire childhood through undergraduate schooling. I then went in the military for the college fund and was effectively taken out of my shell and have been an extrovert ever since… but I “get it”! I find it amazing that you have NEVER questioned god’s existence as there is so much to doubt! Do you agree that “a claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”?!? How is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnisapient, omnipresent, omnitemporal, transcendent entity anything BUT “extraordinary”?!? And excuse me if I missed something, but it seems your soul reason for believing revolved around personal experience alone. Did I miss something. And not to put the cart before the horse but If it *is* just “personal experience”, what validates your personal experience about every other theists “personal experience” of a different religion / god?
I love reading and at work, typically have time to read between appointments so feel free to write as much as you want ! I do however tend to limit my screen time / social media to my work hours as when I am home, I try to spend the lion’s share of time with my wife and 3 awesome children ! Thanks again and hope you have a wonderful and safe weekend!!!