Proof of The Soul (Pandora's Contraption - Part 2)

[psychoslice]

If all is purely and precisely ONE,
then there would be no need or cause for separation.

What continues on is your uniqueness.
Whereas the conditioning, the brain, and that which can be copied does not continue on.

I could go beyond that, but this thread is just to prove that a unique 'I' is different from the brain,
for the simple reason that the unique 'I' is, well unique, but the brain is simply not.
I call this unique 'I', the soul. Yes its just a label.

In order to go beyond this point, the foundation that the soul exists, must be agreed on.
The logic is immaculate.

The details as to how, why, when. Yes. Those have not been touched.
We are only scratching the surface.
Some are just polishing the surface.

Where does this uniqueness come from, what makes you believe you are unique, if all is One, then all is unique, there is no need to talk about being uniqueness, because you have nothing to measure it by.

 

[QuestioningMind]

How can you be so sure?
My argument does not presume to make claims directly about what 'will' occur.
Thus I provide all the logical possibilities.

If your clone does (mysteriously) have its own own-ness, then it is still not YOU.

It could be that a soul incarnates into it, or God creates a new soul for it, or whatever.
It could even 'emerge' out of nothing if those mysterious words suit your historical narrative.
It matters not HOW this occurs, for the sake of this argument.

Either way, it will not be you.

Thus it can only be that the exact replica of your brain will not contain your consciousness.
Thus YOU are not a product of the arrangement of material of your brain. (Nor the material itself)

Thus
the soul
is not
the brain.

ps
Mr Randi, (of JREF forum fame)
if you are reading this,
that is now at least $2million dollars that you owe me.

But thats ok, I know you are likely not good to your word.
The goons running JREF are testament to that.

I'll pick up the $ in the afterlife,
that way God or Jesus can compound the interest.
And besides,
the longer you wait to pay me
the more million$ you owe me.

I'll own your soul for dozens of lifetimes at this rate.
Lord knows if you pay me
I'll probably give up philosophy and
get the urge to procreate instead.

So keep upping the ante.
I'm just getting warmed up.

;-j

"How can you be so sure?"

Because as soon as a duplicate is created the duplicate and the original will start having different experiences that are unique to each individual's mind. If my clone has a conversation with someone, I will not have a memory of it, thus we would each possess our own own-ness.

Not sure why you keep mentioning a soul. Your original contention was that a brain is not needed in order for a mind to exist. Are you somehow equating a mind with a soul?

"Either way, it will not be you." Of course it wouldn't be me. I claimed that as soon as my brain was duplicated the mind being projected by the brain of my clone would become a unique individual because our experiences would start to diverge.

 

[ratiocinator]

If you were one of an identical twin, would you struggle to tell which one was you?
Surely you must see that you are not the other one because you have your perspective.
Your perspective would not jump from one to the other; it is local to its position.
Any attempt to argue otherwise suggests that you do not actually have a unique perspective.
Perhaps you have not quite realized what I mean by 'unique perspective'.
Its not the details of the information that you see, but simply your own sense of 'I'.

I don't think you understood what I meant.

If you were to duplicate me - then there would be two people who had my memories and felt as if they were me. Their experiences would then, of course, diverge.

There is no conceptual problem at all - it's quite simple really.

 

[Polymath257]

You missed the point.

the functions that atoms perform within the structure of a brain
- are not unique -
your consciousness is unique
- therefore -
your consciousness is not entirely a subset of :
the functions that atoms perform within the structure of a brain
because
those functions are
not unique
but
YOU
are unique

But the specific combination of atoms in your brain *is* unique. The specific pattern of interactions between the atoms in your brain *is* unique. For that matter, the specific collection of neural interconnections in your brain *is* unique.

So, it is *possible* that 'you' can be any one of these things.

 

[Polymath257]

I don't think you understood what I meant.

If you were to duplicate me - then there would be two people who had my memories and felt as if they were me. Their experiences would then, of course, diverge.

There is no conceptual problem at all - it's quite simple really.

So? At the instant of duplication, there would be two individuals with the same memories. They *immediately* start to diverge because of different experiences after the duplication.

 

[Polymath257]

By showing that if we replicate the brain, then we cannot replicate a unique 'I'
because a replication is not unique.
Unless you yourself do not actually have a unique 'I'?

So what? Both duplicates would have an experience of being an 'I'.

 

[ratiocinator]

So? At the instant of duplication, there would be two individuals with the same memories. They *immediately* start to diverge because of different experiences after the duplication.

"So?"? Not sure what you're question is; I agree.

 

[Polymath257]

Its not a feeling, its a universal observation.
Are you honestly claiming that you do not observe your own identity as being unique?

I experience my identity as being *mine*. I have no idea whether it is unique. Perhaps someone, somewhere, somewhen had identical experiences, but I doubt it (the probabilities suggest not).

But I certainly don't see it as any existential threat that a duplicate would have the same memories as I do. Both of us would have consciousness. Both of us would have common memories. Both of us would diverge from the other over time.

So?

 

[Polymath257]

"So?"? Not sure what you're question is; I agree.

Yes. It looks like we are coming from the same viewpoint.

BTW, I like your axiom of infinity.

 

[Polymath257]

If you were one of an identical twin, would you struggle to tell which one was you?
Surely you must see that you are not the other one because you have your perspective.
Your perspective would not jump from one to the other; it is local to its position.
Any attempt to argue otherwise suggests that you do not actually have a unique perspective.
Perhaps you have not quite realized what I mean by 'unique perspective'.
Its not the details of the information that you see, but simply your own sense of 'I'.

Yes, I would have my unique position. They would have their unique position. We would also have common memories, so we could probably communicate in incredible ways.

No, the perspective would not jump from one brain to the other. Why should it? If you had two *identical* computers running *identical* programs, that still doesn't mean the data from one is available to the other. Why would it be?

 

[Seven headed beast]

All humans possess a soul.

Their are too many individuals in that I have come across in my reality that clearly have the same or similar attributes as their avatar, which is any of the embodiments of the individual but normally refers to the original possessor of the will that you currently possess.

I deal with divine individual's and most all of them have some or all of their avatars personality, or quirks.

The embodiment of the goddess, Gaia, knew at five years old the she was in the wrong place. She insisted that she was a goddess. And that she be addressed as such. She has been called "princess" ever since then because you cannot call a five year old "goddess". Her house was already adorned with the spiral that is her symbolic representation

There is understanding to be found in the fact that she can just peek at a baby that is screaming it's head off, and when she looks in over the side of the crib the kid will start to giggle and coo, immediately.

There is also the fact that as she represents the great mother, that she has a beauty about her that is unseen. Something that comes from within that she didn't notice until I pointed it out. They are her "court" and are three or four men that just show up in her reality virtually on a daily basis just to be in her presence. Happy to be within her sphere of influence. There each act like they are the Her personal courtesan's and they that are unconcerned about the other would be suitors.

Another avatar that offers understanding is that of Annie Oakley, who was the embodiment of Mars, the Roman god of war. She as a divine individual, has five times the 10% of their brain that a mortal is yoked to. Her hemispheres are not kept out of sight of each other. Her natural organic ability to hit a coin tossed in the air is the deadeye of Mars who could hit a gnats eye with his spear at twenty five paces.

The location of your soul and the size and shape of it are the true wonder in the big picture. The human souls is part of your astral body and lies next to your third eye chakra, which is the pineal gland.

It is about forty millimeters in length and thinner than a human hair.

It is part of what moves through the "bright light at the end of the tunnel" along with your chakras, aura, and consciousness, when you surrender your vessel, Because of damage, disease, or age.

There are five other creatures in our reality that also do possess a soul.

The four Horsemen, of the Apocalypse and the fifth, is kalki's white steed. I see this as one of the most poignant truths that I have come across in my task. I know and consider the embodiments of Hanuman, Ganesha, and the Scylla each my friends. But it is these "horsemen" that make me sad, in the fact that they have a human brain with a soul, but cannot rightly express themselves, past stomping their hoof on the ground. They are locked in to a reality that cannot tell you what it wished or wants are. They cannot express happiness or anger or any thing past a whinny.

Locked in a body with human thoughts but no way to make their pain clear to other. They each have all of their memories because the cannot be made to sit in the chair of forgetfulness, which is where your memories but not your understanding are erased from you last existence to send you into your next.

The young lady that embodies the Greek mythological sea monster, that was the dreaded Scylla, is another individual who I call my hero. She was cursed for no real reason and doomed to live out her life as a lonely solemn individual who only wanted to have a friend in her reality that was in the second Age, or Yuga, when the average life span reached into thousands of years. That's a long time to be alone. She handles it well, despite the fact that she too has each and every memory from her existences, including one where she spent her entire life chained to a dungeon wall.

How do you deal with a reality like that?

The answer that she gives out is that you get used to it.

Ironically, her therapeutic mode involves standing in the ocean, feeling the water throw the sand across her legs, For hours. Just standing in the water. She likes the Atlantic the best.

It's these and other individuals who I know that allow me to understand that we are our avatar, at least in part.

Without a soul, none of them would be who they are, now

 

[Polymath257]

All humans possess a soul.

Their are too many individuals in that I have come across in my reality that clearly have the same or similar attributes as their avatar, which is any of the embodiments of the individual but normally refers to the original possessor of the will that you currently possess.

I deal with divine individual's and most all of them have some or all of their avatars personality, or quirks.

The embodiment of the goddess, Gaia, knew at five years old the she was in the wrong place. She insisted that she was a goddess. And that she be addressed as such. She has been called "princess" ever since then because you cannot call a five year old "goddess". Her house was already adorned with the spiral that is her symbolic representation

There is understanding to be found in the fact that she can just peek at a baby that is screaming it's head off, and when she looks in over the side of the crib the kid will start to giggle and coo, immediately.

There is also the fact that as she represents the great mother, that she has a beauty about her that is unseen. Something that comes from within that she didn't notice until I pointed it out. They are her "court" and are three or four men that just show up in her reality virtually on a daily basis just to be in her presence. Happy to be within her sphere of influence. There each act like they are the Her personal courtesan's and they that are unconcerned about the other would be suitors.

Another avatar that offers understanding is that of Annie Oakley, who was the embodiment of Mars, the Roman god of war. She as a divine individual, has five times the 10% of their brain that a mortal is yoked to. Her hemispheres are not kept out of sight of each other. Her natural organic ability to hit a coin tossed in the air is the deadeye of Mars who could hit a gnats eye with his spear at twenty five paces.

The location of your soul and the size and shape of it are the true wonder in the big picture. The human souls is part of your astral body and lies next to your third eye chakra, which is the pineal gland.

It is about forty millimeters in length and thinner than a human hair.

It is part of what moves through the "bright light at the end of the tunnel" along with your chakras, aura, and consciousness, when you surrender your vessel, Because of damage, disease, or age.

There are five other creatures in our reality that also do possess a soul.

The four Horsemen, of the Apocalypse and the fifth, is kalki's white steed. I see this as one of the most poignant truths that I have come across in my task. I know and consider the embodiments of Hanuman, Ganesha, and the Scylla each my friends. But it is these "horsemen" that make me sad, in the fact that they have a human brain with a soul, but cannot rightly express themselves, past stomping their hoof on the ground. They are locked in to a reality that cannot tell you what it wished or wants are. They cannot express happiness or anger or any thing past a whinny.

Locked in a body with human thoughts but no way to make their pain clear to other. They each have all of their memories because the cannot be made to sit in the chair of forgetfulness, which is where your memories but not your understanding are erased from you last existence to send you into your next.

The young lady that embodies the Greek mythological sea monster, that was the dreaded Scylla, is another individual who I call my hero. She was cursed for no real reason and doomed to live out her life as a lonely solemn individual who only wanted to have a friend in her reality that was in the second Age, or Yuga, when the average life span reached into thousands of years. That's a long time to be alone. She handles it well, despite the fact that she too has each and every memory from her existences, including one where she spent her entire life chained to a dungeon wall.

How do you deal with a reality like that?

The answer that she gives out is that you get used to it.

Ironically, her therapeutic mode involves standing in the ocean, feeling the water throw the sand across her legs, For hours. Just standing in the water. She likes the Atlantic the best.

It's these and other individuals who I know that allow me to understand that we are our avatar, at least in part.

Without a soul, none of them would be who they are, now

Do you have any proof or testing for any of this? How about your first sentence? No? Then the rest can be ignored.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

Where does this uniqueness come from, what makes you believe you are unique, if all is One, then all is unique, there is no need to talk about being uniqueness, because you have nothing to measure it by.

Each of us has our own unique sense of 'I'.
I can tell that I am not you.
You can tell that you are not I.
A pair of 'identical twins' both know which one is which without error,
because each one has their own individual 'I'.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

"How can you be so sure?"

Because as soon as a duplicate is created the duplicate and the original will start having different experiences that are unique to each individual's mind. If my clone has a conversation with someone, I will not have a memory of it, thus we would each possess our own own-ness.

Not sure why you keep mentioning a soul. Your original contention was that a brain is not needed in order for a mind to exist. Are you somehow equating a mind with a soul?

"Either way, it will not be you." Of course it wouldn't be me. I claimed that as soon as my brain was duplicated the mind being projected by the brain of my clone would become a unique individual because our experiences would start to diverge.

The going materialist theory is that YOU (your mind) is a result of the pattern of particles and energy of your brain.
If we duplicate this pattern precisely, then the duplicate would be YOU according to this theory.
But clearly, you say
"Of course it wouldn't be me"
Thus proving that YOU cannot be a result of the pattern of particles and energy of your brain.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

I don't think you understood what I meant.

If you were to duplicate me - then there would be two people who had my memories and felt as if they were me. Their experiences would then, of course, diverge.

There is no conceptual problem at all - it's quite simple really.

So you would step into the teleporter then?

 

[QuestioningMind]

The going materialist theory is that YOU (your mind) is a result of the pattern of particles and energy of your brain.
If we duplicate this pattern precisely, then the duplicate would be YOU according to this theory.
But clearly, you say
"Of course it wouldn't be me"
Thus proving that YOU cannot be a result of the pattern of particles and energy of your brain.

You misunderstand. IF you duplicated my consciousness, at the instant of duplication, my consciousness and my clones consciousness WOULD be identical and indistinguishable from me. But an instant AFTER duplication each mind would begin having their own unique experiences and would diverge at that point into two uniquely separate individuals.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

But the specific combination of atoms in your brain *is* unique. The specific pattern of interactions between the atoms in your brain *is* unique. For that matter, the specific collection of neural interconnections in your brain *is* unique.

So, it is *possible* that 'you' can be any one of these things.

If they are atoms, they are not unique, because atoms are interchangeable.
That is why the periodic table works, and why one glass of water quenches thirst the same as another.
This is why you are still you, even with quite a different brain to when you were 5 years old.
Patterns are just geometry, entirely replicate-able.
So the materialist theory just supposes that only significant structure makes your mind's 'I'.
It does not even have to be mostly exact.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

So what? Both duplicates would have an experience of being an 'I'.

Suppose that you arrived at the other end of the teleport, but were told that your other body
had mistakenly not been destroyed, but for a 100% discount and the newest cell-phone
you would be required to just whack the other (sleeping) you with a mallet.
All perfectly legal, since *you* actually were legally teleported.

Would you do it?

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

Yes, I would have my unique position. They would have their unique position. We would also have common memories, so we could probably communicate in incredible ways.

No, the perspective would not jump from one brain to the other. Why should it? If you had two *identical* computers running *identical* programs, that still doesn't mean the data from one is available to the other. Why would it be?

I think you just failed the Turing test.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

You misunderstand. IF you duplicated my consciousness, at the instant of duplication, my consciousness and my clones consciousness WOULD be identical and indistinguishable from me. But an instant AFTER duplication each mind would begin having their own unique experiences and would diverge at that point into two uniquely separate individuals.

Its about duplicating the brain. And questioning what occurs to the conscious 'YOU'.
Nobody ever questioned that they would have differing experiences thereafter, so its pointless even mentioning that.

"at the instant of duplication, my consciousness and my clones consciousness WOULD be identical"
But only one could actually be YOU.