Tumah
Veteran Member
See Isaiah 24:34 and 34:8.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Proof of the Torah
- Thread starter Nakosis
- Start date
A context to what you are saying about them, please?
Tumah
Veteran Member
The same context you mentioned those chapters in.A context to what you are saying about them, please?
The actual DNA relationship goes well beyond the Jews. Very very closely related are the Palestinian Arabs, and too close to all Arabs to easily define a separate race. See:The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians
The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians
January 20, 2009 by Epiphenom 193
The Times recently carried this unusual report on an Israeli Jew (Tsvi Misinai, a retired computer expert) who’s hoping to prove that Palestinians are descended from Jews. Apparently, he thinks that proving this will help to stop the bloodshed. His idea is that modern Jews are descended from emigration in the first few centuries of the Christian era. The Jews who stayed put in Palestine converted to Islam, and became Palestinian Arabs. There’s hope that genetic tests might be able to prove this.
Well, there is good news and bad news on that score.
The good news is that the genetics of Arabs and Jews have been pretty extensively researched. The classic study dates to 2000, from a team lead by Michael Hammer of University of Arizona. They looked at Y-chromosome haplotypes – this is the genetic material passed from father to son down the generations.What they revealed was that Arabs and Jews are essentially a single population, and that Palestinians are slap bang in the middle of the different Jewish populations (as shown in this figure).
Another team, lead by Almut Nebel at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem, took a closer look in 2001. They found that Jewish lineages essentially bracket Muslim Kurds, but they were also very closely related to Palestinians. In fact, what their analysis suggested was that Palestinians were identical to Jews, but with a small mix of Arab genes – what you would expect if they were originally from the same stock, but that Palestinians had mixed a little with Arab immigrants. They conclude:
We propose that the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews (Nebel et al. 2000). According to our working model, the more-recent migrations were mostly from the Arabian Peninsula…
So, as far as male lineage goes, the genetic story is very clear. Palestinians and Jews are virtually indistinguishable.
Tumah
Veteran Member
Yes, I'm familiar with that study. It changes nothing though so long as they do not claim to be the people to whom G-d gave the Torah.The actual DNA relationship goes well beyond the Jews. Very very closely related are the Palestinian Arabs, and too close to all Arabs to easily define a separate race. See:The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians
The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians
January 20, 2009 by Epiphenom 193
The Times recently carried this unusual report on an Israeli Jew (Tsvi Misinai, a retired computer expert) who’s hoping to prove that Palestinians are descended from Jews. Apparently, he thinks that proving this will help to stop the bloodshed. His idea is that modern Jews are descended from emigration in the first few centuries of the Christian era. The Jews who stayed put in Palestine converted to Islam, and became Palestinian Arabs. There’s hope that genetic tests might be able to prove this.
Well, there is good news and bad news on that score.The good news is that the genetics of Arabs and Jews have been pretty extensively researched. The classic study dates to 2000, from a team lead by Michael Hammer of University of Arizona. They looked at Y-chromosome haplotypes – this is the genetic material passed from father to son down the generations.
What they revealed was that Arabs and Jews are essentially a single population, and that Palestinians are slap bang in the middle of the different Jewish populations (as shown in this figure).
Another team, lead by Almut Nebel at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem, took a closer look in 2001. They found that Jewish lineages essentially bracket Muslim Kurds, but they were also very closely related to Palestinians. In fact, what their analysis suggested was that Palestinians were identical to Jews, but with a small mix of Arab genes – what you would expect if they were originally from the same stock, but that Palestinians had mixed a little with Arab immigrants. They conclude:
We propose that the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews (Nebel et al. 2000). According to our working model, the more-recent migrations were mostly from the Arabian Peninsula…
So, as far as male lineage goes, the genetic story is very clear. Palestinians and Jews are virtually indistinguishable.
I for one have no problem with them making that claim and returning to Jewish practice.
The point is not the claim of those who profess the practice and belief of Jewish practice, which may or not share a significant element in your DNA with all those who share the Jewish practice, but your claim of the DNA reflects this egocentric claim is false. The DNA and the Arabs who believe in Islam are closer in relation that cannot be distinguished by DNA from those that believe in the Jewish practice.
Last edited:
Tumah
Veteran Member
It would be awesome id you could throw in an extra period in there, just to make what you're saying clear. I think you are reiterating that there are Palestinians who share the same DNA as Jews yet believe in Islam.
I'm not sure what the point you're getting at with this information is. These Muslims are not making the claim that the Torah was given to Muslims (I'd be surprised if they would even acknowledge a genetic relation to us). They would presumably agree that the Torah was given to Jews per the Quran - whether they accept that this includes their own Jewish ancestors or not.
What are you disagreeing with?
It doesn't bother you that the Exodus story is fiction?
Middle eastern Jews and Muslims are of the same stock. What separates you from each other is only religious belief. Two brothers and a stolen birthright. I suppose it even makes sense in a tribal sort of way.
So how do Muslims view the story of Jacob and Esau?
Tumah
Veteran Member
Really...?
If you go back far enough, we all are. But that's got nothing to do with anything.
Jedster
Flying through space
Yes, it must be fiction.
Why?
Because Hollywood made the movie(the 10 commandments) and everyone knows that everything that comes out of Hollywood is fiction.
Right?
Pretty much accepted to be the case by most folks.
A good book on it is "The Bible Unearthed".
Just another reason to see religion as a source of division. Religion is not a legitimate excuse for anything really but certainly no excuse for how one treats their fellow man.
Tumah
Veteran Member
Unlike appeals to majority, I'm an Orthodox Jew.
I think you've lost the thread of discussion.
Which has no meaning outside of Judaism.
I think it was lost a while back when you decided the discussion was about Jews.
Tumah
Veteran Member
Which is why you haven't found me trying to convince anyone here about it.
I guess that means you didn't get my point this whole time. Well, I tried.
Ok, not trying to convince anyone of your religious belief.
If your point relies on religious belief that tends to happen.
Tumah
Veteran Member
If you read my argument, its been about what the Torah records. I haven't said very much about belief at all. My argument doesn't require belief that thw Torah was given by G-d.
Should we count the number of posts where you referred to God, or that you claimed only Judaism had any legitimate claim to the Torah. However the way your point continues to evolve I suppose you can claim whatever you wish.
I think my response to your first post was sufficient.
Tumah
Veteran Member
In as much as the three religions believe in G-d, G-d is relevant. But I also explained way back that belief in G-d isn't necessary for my claim.
Whether G-d gave it to us or human authors wrote it, they made it clear who the intended recipients are.
Our claim is consistent with what is internally claimed by the Author or authors.
Our claim is consistent with what is internally claimed by the Author or authors.
I still maintain that claim. I just haven't made it on strictly religious grounds.
Has it?
Had it been, we wouldn't still be here.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
I would also beg to differ with the OP.
"Also archeology shows that some events in the Torah probably where partially based on fact and others where not."
Did Torah never claimed that it was a text-book of science? or a text-book of history? Please
To add to the above:
Is there proof that any event that is claimed to have happened in the times of Torah, by the eulogizers of science ( not claimed by science) in the times of Torah having actually happened?
The OP or those supporting OP's stance, in the first place to reflect on the above, please.
Others also not forbidden to comment, however. Please
Regards
Last edited: