Proofs for God/Religion. Got a good one?

[waitasec]

I could say the same about the binary code in computer software...its just the two number building blocks of any computer program

no you can't. binary numbers are numbers...
something that humans invented...not discovered...there is a world of difference.

but that doesnt explain much about how the binary code got there.

it is a human invention.
DNA ultimately comes from the cosmos...and may not be the only building block for life either

some food for thought...

Another totally intriguing possibility, one of many that deGrasse Tyson Director of the Hayden Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History and host PBS's NOVA scienceNOW., describes in Origins: Fourteen Billion Years of Cosmic Evolution, is that there is life that has encoding that has nothing to do with DNA....

It is not a question that can be answered. Not enough information is available and it will not be available until alien life is found outside our solar system and studied.

Even if life was found elsewhere in our solar system and was determined to be DNA based this would not resolve the question. All of the planets are too close together, relatively speaking, and life could have been spread from one to the other by asteroids impacting the planets and moons and the ejecta being transferred by meteor impacts.

My personal guess would be have to be no, all life in the universe is not DNA based.

Our galaxy alone contains over 200 billion stars. It has been calculated that there are at least 100,000,000,000 galaxies in the universe. Estimates are that there at least 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the universe.

I think it would be arrogant of us to assume that in all the vast reaches of space the way life has evolved on this planet is the only way possible for life to evolve.

"Will DNA Prove to be the Life Code Throughout the Universe?"

 

[Pegg]

WhatI meant when I said that DNA was "simplistic" is that it is composed of units which are perfectly understandable, and perfectly explicable in terms of both their formation as individuals, their bonding and their functioning as a unit. All of this has been done by biologists: why haven't you looked it up? From where does the "blasphemy" come from someone with so little knowledge of biology to be "sure Darwin would have written" evolution differently if he'd known about the complexity of DNA? Like I said, it has all been worked out very neatly; DNA may be "complex bio machinery", but its formation and functioning is completely within the realm of basic science to explain, with an explanation which suits all known cases and has a very high probability of being true.

Now before you return, please read up on basic biology and make sure your posts are informed with facts rather than just your own opinion, especially when it comes to science (a topic on which "opinions" do not exist without a serious backing up of evidence).

explaining how something works does not explain where it came from.

 

[BottomlessThought]

here is a computer program for you to try out... mutations dont produce meaningful sentences.

LOL, do you really fail to see the difference between random mutations and selective success by natural selection? I would suggest that:

1. Learn what is meant by "evolution" to the extent that you know and understand what natural selection is.
2. Skip out the more detailed and wider stuff which will go over your head and go straight to The Selfish Gene and Climbing Mount Improbable by Richard Dawkins.
3. If you still don't understand evolution, come back here and ask for help.

explaining how something works does not explain where it came from.

I thought I noted that the "formation and bonding" of DNA's building units had been explained to the stage that the answer is well known and highly probable to be correct? (and, of course, backed up heavily with testing and observation)

 

[Pegg]

no you can't. binary numbers are numbers...
something that humans invented...not discovered...there is a world of difference.

those binary numbers produce meaningful information because they have been coded in by an intelligent mind to produce meaningful information.

there is meaningful information in the DNA, yet some would claim that it does not have to be coded in...its crazy to believe that. crazy.

 

[waitasec]

those binary numbers produce meaningful information because they have been coded in by an intelligent mind to produce meaningful information.

that's because it is an intentional code...
DNA isn't.

there is meaningful information in the DNA, yet some would claim that it does not have to be coded in...its crazy to believe that. crazy.

maybe code is the wrong word...
it's a building block that has evolved over time.

 

[Pegg]

that's because it is an intentional code...
DNA isn't.

if DNA isnt an 'intentional' code, why do you not have an arm sticking out of your head, or eyes at the back of your head, or fingers where your ears are?

DNA is very specific and very structured

maybe code is the wrong word...
it's a building block that has evolved over time.

No, code is the right word. DNA is packed with information, which is encoded in chemical form and stored in a molecular environment that is capable of interpreting that code and acting on it. There is so much information in the DNA that if it were converted into letters of the alphabet, they are said to fill more than a million pages of a typical book

and the fact is that DNA is so organized that scientists can 'de-code' it....if it were as random as you say, then it could not be understood because it would have no valid information in it.

 

[sojourner]

It's all very shaky- God is both immanent though his work cannot be explicitly seen and transcendent for that reason. You get to describe how God wants you to live based on pretty much nothing. God doesn't actually care about some of the things anyway. Power structures need to topple though there is no real evidence for this, just accounts of power structures that have toppled. The odd thing about this is that I'd have to show you a power structure that has never topple to argue against you. So, I'm just going to leave it. You know stuff about God that is personal to you so you won't share it. We can know what we know. We can't look upon the metaphorical face. Which somehow doesn't indicate there is no metaphorical face to be looked at. We can't know what God is like or what he wants through scripture because some parts are written for the time. It doesn't matter because he doesn't care about some things, though we cannot tell what. I could pick and choose stoning gays and punishing rape victims through forced marriage and forget about 'thou shalt not kill' and be equally Christian as you because I have the right to pick and choose.

It's all a bit woolly, all inconclusive, all slippery. The way it looks to me is that you can't tell me anything about God. There's no argument for God. There doesn't seem to be any reason for me to believe in a God. All the things above are what you've said. From that i glean that you can't tell me of any concrete beliefs you have. Because God doesn't care about random parts and scripture is unreliable. The odd thing is that this is just your view. Many Christians would disagree. I suppose I'll leave you with he list I've just mentioned and you can focus your energy BottomlessThought. If you have any bits you want to further discuss that's fine. But don't feel pressured to respond

It's easy to take snippets of long conversations and spin them however you want to. And all, apparently, because you're afraid to live with mystery of what cannot be understood. Apparently, you want Xy to be some draconian, rigid system based upon ancient writings which *must* be taken at face value and imbued with some sort of authority. That authority has to be personally handed down by a God who is immediately and fully apparent to the weakest scientific proof. Problem is, if I presented Xy that way, you'd make fun of me too -- all because Xy doesn't fit your concept of what it "ought" to be.

I'm on your side here, if you'd take your nose out of the air long enough to realize it. God cannot be proven. You said it -- I said it. For some reason, unless I "buy into" your assessment of God's existence, I'm going to be dissed.

Sure is easy to entertain some folks...

 

[sojourner]

Funnily enough, or maybe it's just because it's been a long day, I can't find anything to be truly at fault with in that post. We clearly have a difference of opinion in that I don't think there's any such "simple spirituality" because of my logic-only outlook (in other words, my personal experience does not suggest God to me) whereas your personal experience puts God forward to you. But we've already clarified our views on that, and agreed that it's all subjective to this extent, so to be honest, I can't really take the arguing any further.

Except to note that even so, you have not provided any evidence for God/religion, which, essentially, is what the OP was after in starting this thread. I know that you realize there are no such things, but it's just so much more enlightening (and fun) to argue with someone whose arguments are, at their core, flawed, whereas as long as you understand what I've said about subjectivity and are not trying to put forward personal experience as an objective argument for God, you do not seem to me to have essentially wrong points of view.

Just to note, I still have a misgiving about the Bible. It has various verses which seem to demonstrate that the God in it is just a really evil guy (I can provide you with examples, and I'm sure muffin8or can do the same), albeit by our current moral standards; but surely he should never be doing anything that would end up, by any moral standards, being accepted as downright wrong (rather than "debatably flawed" or "in the grey zone"). He should either have known better than to do something which, one day down the line, we would see as a fault in him, or, if our current moral standards are flawed, he should have prevented us from going down the route we have.

Yeah, and that's a problem for the one who places unquestioned authority in the texts. However, if one realizes that the Bible isn't a textbook of fact, but a theological treatment of the ancient and largely oral tradition of ancient hebraic people, one can take such passages with more-or-less a grain of salt.

 

[savethedreams]

How can Christians bring science into a religious argument when many scientist are atheist/agnostic or don't have the same "religious beliefs' as most christians?

 

[muffin8or]

It's easy to take snippets of long conversations and spin them however you want to. And all, apparently, because you're afraid to live with mystery of what cannot be understood. Apparently, you want Xy to be some draconian, rigid system based upon ancient writings which *must* be taken at face value and imbued with some sort of authority. That authority has to be personally handed down by a God who is immediately and fully apparent to the weakest scientific proof. Problem is, if I presented Xy that way, you'd make fun of me too -- all because Xy doesn't fit your concept of what it "ought" to be.

I'm on your side here, if you'd take your nose out of the air long enough to realize it. God cannot be proven. You said it -- I said it. For some reason, unless I "buy into" your assessment of God's existence, I'm going to be dissed.

Sure is easy to entertain some folks...

You're wrong. All we got from the conversation was snippets. We didn't explore any point to any higher degree. And you k ow nothing about me. I'd love to believe in a god. What would be better than knowing I'll see dead relatives in an after life, that my alloyed time on earth is not all there is. But frankly there is nothing in these conversations that points to a god. I already told you that I'm no longer interested with proof. We moved to arguments for god. You argument made no sense when it came to showing that power structures had to collapse. There was no had to about it. So no proof, no argument, no knowledge of gods nature, no knowledge of god's will - no reason to believe. I can make up random sentences that have as much validity as what you say in relation to god simply because we've found there is authority on god be it religion or scripture. I'm not as closed minded as you think but there is nothing that you have presented that even indicates a God. I doubt you will ever find one because it's all woolly. Those snipers summed up what we discussed accurately. Either add to it or admit those were some of the conclusions.

 

[sojourner]

All we got from the conversation was snippets.

If you want scholarly treatments of theology, you likely won't find them on a forum like this.

We didn't explore any point to any higher degree.

Again: see above.

I'd love to believe in a god.

Then why don't you?

But frankly there is nothing in these conversations that points to a god.

Well, the thread wasn't really designed to point to God, was it?

You argument made no sense when it came to showing that power structures had to collapse.

You misunderstood what I said.

So no proof, no argument, no knowledge of gods nature, no knowledge of god's will - no reason to believe.

I thought you just said you weren't interested in proof...
Why do you need an argument, or some sort of objective knowledge of God's nature, or God's will in order to believe? Unless you're looking at God as something outside yourself, rather than something inside you?

I can make up random sentences that have as much validity as what you say in relation to god simply because we've found there is authority on god be it religion or scripture.

Not sure I understand what you're saying, because your syntax got garbled. What kind of authority are you looking for? Why do you think you need some sort of authority?

there is nothing that you have presented that even indicates a God.

It wasn't my intent to "indicate a God" in this thread.

it's all woolly.

Yes, it is. That's what happens when one attempts to pin God down too narrowly.

Those snipers summed up what we discussed accurately.

I'd have to disagree. You put a spin on what I said that was wholly inaccurate.

 

[GA777]

The future may be detailed but is the prediction? Hit us with the verse. Bear in mind that the older passages of the Bible were edited by Greek philosophers. Some passages of the bible have been shown to be edited to fit parts that were later written.

Go on, I'm all ears

You've already told me that it is edited, why would it matter if I cite any true prophecy? To get the same response again when you wont find a mistake in it?

And what about Near Death Experiences? Are they made up too?

G

 

[Landerage]

Your English has taken a turn for the worse. I've looked at your other posts and its better there. Put some effort into it.

Why can't the universe have always existed? Why bring in a supernatural being to explain stuff when that being is unexplainable?

The universe didn't always exist as big ban theory says, it was created from nothing. So a normal human being, curious for knowledge can't simply accept the fact that the universe is here, if your satisfied with that fact then sure it means you accept being an ignorant and never step out of the shell, same as being in a room and never open the door to see what's outside. Nobody brought a supernatural being, this being is presented in holy books and introduce himself as the lord of this universe, he invites people who are seeking his mercy and forgiveness (which all people need) however some people think they dont need such faith, so be it and the truth shall be known after they die. God being unexplainable is not of humans concern for the moment, beleiving in him is mostly to be obedient and accept his wish. Our brains are limited to comprehend God, it's his wish and the story ends here.

Each reason for your faith has no standing. Thus combined they have no worth.

Or maybe nothing is chosen for any higher purpose and there is no need to read so far into it.

Egg, flower, sugar, heat , each alone doesn't taste nor provoke the idea of a delicious meal, but combined together and baked makes one delicious cake (wisdom can be found in the world)
You can see the world from two perspectives, the world made to fit us, or we are made to fit the world and I can't argue about that.

Don't kid yourself. You were indoctrinated by your Muslim family. You were brought up a Muslim and decided to stick with it. You have no reason to follow Islam specifically. How do you know that Hinduism isn't the way to go. Or Buddhism or Zoroastrianism? You don't have an in depth knowledge of all religions so you could well be wrong. Actually, since we know nothing about god and there are thousands of claims about him, your claim is probable to be wrong

Well I wish your claims were brought in a question form, but as I see you decided how my life is and claim incorrect personal things about me, ignoring that.
It's true I have basic knowledge of other religions, roads are different but the goal is all the same. My main knowledge about God is from the Qur'an, which proved me that it is the book of God. And there is thousands of book of God but most have been tempered with. So I find the Qur'an as the only authetic source for spiritual knowledge at this point of my life. And I beleive that God would guide me towards a better path if there was a better one.

4:34 "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard."
Devoutly obedient, eh?

eh what ?

"cancer in babies and down syndrome and famine and death and plague and sweltering heat and bitter cold and terminal illness" is not caused by humans. It's controllable by God.
And prayers are never answered. If they seem answered it's a natural event. Why bring superstition into it?

The lack of faith tells you to read cancer/babies death and other misery in the world as something harmful or evil sent from God to make humans suffer.
First of all, many diseases are human originated, wether it was pollution, food quality etc...
Second, God brings misery for people who deserve it even if sometimes it doesn't seem like it from our human view. A baby dying, you might see it as something awful, and as this baby suffering, but from the bottom of my heart, I know God wouldn't make a baby suffer even though it might seem to us as suffery. Have you ever prayed for God or accepted that invitation and see the outcome? You see faith is not science, going from a correct idea to find the other correct idea. Faith you gota accept it first, open the door in that room, pray for God, see his answer, ask him for guidance and deduct from the outcome. It's not knowledge built on a false hypothesis, it's simply: I dont know if a prayer is never answered unless I try, why would God guide me if I never asked for his guidance?

And here is the interesting bit. This is the part I want you to respond to. If we all have free will how does god grant a prayer. Say you pray for money God must move that money from someone else to you. What about that someone else's free will? Or a good test mark. The examiner's free will to judge what you know is being interfered with. Heck, your own free will to learn is being tampered with. Praying for better health? What about the free will of the person who poisoned you? Where does that go? God cannot intervene without ruining someone's free will.
And if God is all knowing then at the point of creation he knew exactly what you were going to do and if you are going to hell or not. So why create us or put us in hellfire for all eternity if he knows exactly where we end up? What an evil god.
I don't know how you live in Utah with such bad English. then again, maybe you're putting it on.

Hm i didn't quite understand your point, but I think your saying that for God to answer someone's prayer that would affect another person somewhere in the world. Well it's not logical for me, God capable of anything, is definitely able to guide all people, answer all prayers. But not every person deserve being guided, and the reason is their choice of using free will to choose the wrong choices. God knows what if im going to hell, but what this information brings to me at this time ? It brings nothing to me, because I must do the best I can in life. So the information of God knowing what I will choose, have no value for me at the time I am typing. It's same as telling that, I know God knows what I will do, but in order to continue my life and do the best I can, I must partially ignore this information and own judge myself and see if the decisions I made are the best that I could have ever made. And if I made a wrong deicision, then I would ask his forgiveness. Why he created us? The Qur'an says: we only created you to worship God. However all God asks of me is 30 min of prayers a day as you already mentioned and to be thankfull, and fill the earth with peace and joy and all minor things in exchange of a better place in heaven. Why wouldn't I be thankfull to the blessing of sight, and to the food I eat, have you ever looked at an apple and felt the need to thank whoever made it?
Why would we say no, when we are invited to forgiveness in the greatest book you can ever find? Wouldn't it be wrong not to accept that offer?

 

[Landerage]

You're wrong. All we got from the conversation was snippets. We didn't explore any point to any higher degree. And you k ow nothing about me. I'd love to believe in a god. What would be better than knowing I'll see dead relatives in an after life, that my alloyed time on earth is not all there is. But frankly there is nothing in these conversations that points to a god. I already told you that I'm no longer interested with proof. We moved to arguments for god. You argument made no sense when it came to showing that power structures had to collapse. There was no had to about it. So no proof, no argument, no knowledge of gods nature, no knowledge of god's will - no reason to believe. I can make up random sentences that have as much validity as what you say in relation to god simply because we've found there is authority on god be it religion or scripture. I'm not as closed minded as you think but there is nothing that you have presented that even indicates a God. I doubt you will ever find one because it's all woolly. Those snipers summed up what we discussed accurately. Either add to it or admit those were some of the conclusions.

I can see you would love to beleive in God, but something is holding you back and you call it lack of proof. What tells you anyway that a proof is a 100% authetic way to get to the reality of things? If i prove that each human hand have 5 fingers by sight, what if my sight was wrong? what if the whole world was an illusion? Did you ever see the movie "Matrix" ?
What's authetic for me, is my need of God. I need God in this life even if life itself might be an illusion, and God introduced himself to me as merciful and forgiving and all hearing. And that is the only what so called "proof" that I need... Not beleiving means giving up on his mercy and mostly Not WANTING to beleive in God. And you should deduct from human nature in being greedy, that when you get a proof you want a more "convincing" one and that loop never ends, while all what is supposed to do, is folow your needs as a human and starting faith as soon as possible no matter what other people says. Your responsible of yourself and not any other human being. Life passes fast and you dont get a second chance, all he asks us to be patient till this life pass and then we can see the real truth, that day faith is no longer faith, it becomes accurate and genuine knowledge. As the prophet (pbuh) says in what means that people who are living are dead, when they die they become living. Sight becomes stronger and everything is more clear, and the fear of life being an illusion is gone then. Every human bringing his library of books, each book containing whatever he did in life, and everything is written in it. Hurry up and stand in line because this life will pass in a blink of an eye, and that's my last advice for you my friend!

 

[BottomlessThought]

I can see you would love to beleive in God, but something is holding you back and you call it lack of proof. What tells you anyway that a proof is a 100% authetic way to get to the reality of things? If i prove that each human hand have 5 fingers by sight, what if my sight was wrong? what if the whole world was an illusion? Did you ever see the movie "Matrix" ?
What's authetic for me, is my need of God. I need God in this life even if life itself might be an illusion, and God introduced himself to me as merciful and forgiving and all hearing. And that is the only what so called "proof" that I need... Not beleiving means giving up on his mercy and mostly Not WANTING to beleive in God. And you should deduct from human nature in being greedy, that when you get a proof you want a more "convincing" one and that loop never ends, while all what is supposed to do, is folow your needs as a human and starting faith as soon as possible no matter what other people says. Your responsible of yourself and not any other human being. Life passes fast and you dont get a second chance, all he asks us to be patient till this life pass and then we can see the real truth, that day faith is no longer faith, it becomes accurate and genuine knowledge. As the prophet (pbuh) says in what means that people who are living are dead, when they die they become living. Sight becomes stronger and everything is more clear, and the fear of life being an illusion is gone then. Every human bringing his library of books, each book containing whatever he did in life, and everything is written in it. Hurry up and stand in line because this life will pass in a blink of an eye, and that's my last advice for you my friend!

When this life "passes in the blink of an eye", there is nothing beyond it, except what you choose to believe in. No-one "doesn't want" to believe in God; it is the difference between those who bend down to their needs and their wish for God to exist, simply because they are too weak to face life without this submission, and those who refuse to comfort themselves with irrational thoughts, and remain steadfastly logical and advanced in their mind-view regardless of what they would "love to believe".

 

[sojourner]

When this life "passes in the blink of an eye", there is nothing beyond it, except what you choose to believe in.

How do you know?

No-one "doesn't want" to believe in God;

I know people who don't want to...

it is the difference between those who bend down to their needs and their wish for God to exist, simply because they are too weak to face life without this submission, and those who refuse to comfort themselves with irrational thoughts, and remain steadfastly logical and advanced in their mind-view regardless of what they would "love to believe".

So you think it's all about some head-in-the-sand false security blanket?
So you think that all believers are irrational?
I know that, for me (and many others), faith is more about possibilities and creating the space to question and explore, and granting the freedom to walk a journey in search of what we do not yet know.
I don't know fully what God is. I have some theological constructs that point toward God, but they are not descriptions so much as they are metaphors. The important thing for me is the search.
There is a facet of humanity that lies outside the realm of rational reason, and I believe that facet is part of what it means to be a whole human being. We need reason, and we need imagination (that is, unless you think that imagination is something better left to "lower" forms of life...)
For me, God is found partly in the realm of imagination -- not like a fairy tale pink elephant, but in the wonder of a universe so ordered that a particular planet in a particular solar system in a particular galaxy of a particular universe could support life that is reasonable and creative and imaginative.

And there's nothing "submissive," "irrational," or "backward" about that.

 

[PolyHedral]

There is so much information in the DNA that if it were converted into letters of the alphabet, they are said to fill more than a million pages of a typical book

In which specific genome? Because the shortest genomes are only a few thousand base-pairs long, shorter than most novels.

Also, please remember that it is possible for me to read 4GB or so of completely random data from RANDOM.ORG - True Random Number Service and get your entire genome, in order. And then interpret that as music, which I can then play.

There is no information encoded in DNA. There is only information when you interpret it in a specific context. (In the case you are talking about thermodynamic information, you are also wrong; that information is encoded by the N/O/H/C atoms, and is conserved regardless of their configuration.)

 

[muffin8or]

Sorry if was garbled, I typed that on my phone.

If you want scholarly treatments of theology, you likely won't find them on a forum like this.

You're doing this again. First you say that it's easy to just use snippets in my summary and then you say that I won't get more than snippets as if it is my fault.

Well, the thread wasn't really designed to point to God, was it?

It was meant to be proofs and arguments for God. A proof is conclusive, an argument would indicate God. That's why I said it doesn't need to be logical or can be from personal experience. As the person who created the thread, I'd say yes, it was created to point to God.

It wasn't my intent to "indicate a God" in this thread.

So can you indicate the existence of a God?

I thought you just said you weren't interested in proof...
Why do you need an argument, or some sort of objective knowledge of God's nature, or God's will in order to believe? Unless you're looking at God as something outside yourself, rather than something inside you?

Thinking that it would be nice for God to exist has no bearing on whether he does or not. And it has no bearing on my belief. What does have a bearing on my belief is a number of things.
Proof - yes, I said it. But we've discredited that. So we move on. Just because I say proof don't get hung up on it like you did in the quote. I was summarising. And in summarising I included everything
Arguments - You would expect an argument for God to indicate or point to his existence. Which moves us on to power structures:

You misunderstood what I said.

This is another thing you do. You don't elaborate. And when I ask you to elaborate you lose train of the thread because you post four word answers. But I'll ask you anyway. What did I misunderstand?

Another thing that would indicate that there is a God
God's nature - If there is some way I know God's nature then that would point to his existence
Same with God's will.

So what I was saying is that in the absence of all these there is nothing that points me towards God. I'm not looking for proof, just an indication or a sign

Unless you're looking at God as something outside yourself, rather than something inside you?

Now this is interesting. In what way is God inside me? If you were to demonstrate this then that would point to God. I'm open to ideas

 

[muffin8or]

The universe didn't always exist as big ban theory says, it was created from nothing. So a normal human being, curious for knowledge can't simply accept the fact that the universe is here, if your satisfied with that fact then sure it means you accept being an ignorant and never step out of the shell, same as being in a room and never open the door to see what's outside. Nobody brought a supernatural being, this being is presented in holy books and introduce himself as the lord of this universe, he invites people who are seeking his mercy and forgiveness (which all people need) however some people think they dont need such faith, so be it and the truth shall be known after they die. God being unexplainable is not of humans concern for the moment, beleiving in him is mostly to be obedient and accept his wish. Our brains are limited to comprehend God, it's his wish and the story ends here.

You show no evidence.

Egg, flower, sugar, heat , each alone doesn't taste nor provoke the idea of a delicious meal, but combined together and baked makes one delicious cake (wisdom can be found in the world)

But eggs have nutritional value. As does flour and sugar. And we know that if you heat stuff it chemically changes. So we do have basis for thinking it might make a cake. Your points have no basis at all.

eh what ?

That was a quote from your holy book. Which you say makes the best societies.

The lack of faith tells you to read cancer/babies death and other misery in the world as something harmful or evil sent from God to make humans suffer.
First of all, many diseases are human originated, wether it was pollution, food quality etc...
Second, God brings misery for people who deserve it even if sometimes it doesn't seem like it from our human view. A baby dying, you might see it as something awful, and as this baby suffering, but from the bottom of my heart, I know God wouldn't make a baby suffer even though it might seem to us as suffery. Have you ever prayed for God or accepted that invitation and see the outcome? You see faith is not science, going from a correct idea to find the other correct idea. Faith you gota accept it first, open the door in that room, pray for God, see his answer, ask him for guidance and deduct from the outcome. It's not knowledge built on a false hypothesis, it's simply: I dont know if a prayer is never answered unless I try, why would God guide me if I never asked for his guidance?

You tell me that you think God would have a purpose for the crying suffering baby. But you give me no reason. I see that it poses a problem for you but with your closed mind you just think that God has a plan.

I wasn't always atheist. I was a Muslim and believed in God. I prayed for my parents to not get divorced, for my mother not to cry or be upset, and for her life to be made easier. NOTHING changed. NOTHING happened. Prayer didn't work. So there

Hm i didn't quite understand your point, but I think your saying that for God to answer someone's prayer that would affect another person somewhere in the world. Well it's not logical for me, God capable of anything, is definitely able to guide all people, answer all prayers.

If you ask for a pay rise at your job from God, God will have to make the head of the company give you more money. Either you agree that the head of the company's free will is being abused or you agree God doesn't grant people pay rises. Tell me a different outcome?

 

[Landerage]

You show no evidence.



But eggs have nutritional value. As does flour and sugar. And we know that if you heat stuff it chemically changes. So we do have basis for thinking it might make a cake. Your points have no basis at all.

That was a quote from your holy book. Which you say makes the best societies.

You tell me that you think God would have a purpose for the crying suffering baby. But you give me no reason. I see that it poses a problem for you but with your closed mind you just think that God has a plan.

I wasn't always atheist. I was a Muslim and believed in God. I prayed for my parents to not get divorced, for my mother not to cry or be upset, and for her life to be made easier. NOTHING changed. NOTHING happened. Prayer didn't work. So there



If you ask for a pay rise at your job from God, God will have to make the head of the company give you more money. Either you agree that the head of the company's free will is being abused or you agree God doesn't grant people pay rises. Tell me a different outcome?

I have a closed mind? Ignoring another personal accusition made by you.
Well my friend if you was a muslim, you would know that God ordered us to be patient, and to have trust in him as he leads us to the better path and for a better life and afterlife. And in a specific verse in the Qur'an, he order us to never give up on his mercy, and those who do will eventualy loose. Your intentions through prayers were to releif your mother, and to make things better but God have the greater wisdom and his will is wiser then anyone's will. When my prayer isn't answered the way I want too, it's usualy answered in a better way then I had on my mind, and that shows how God is all merciful and all loving. And from many personal experiences, sometimes things get tight and I have nowhere to go, and nobody to support, and prayers always worked for me, and things that were complicated just magicaly become simple and everything gets fixed and life go with ease. If you gave up on God once, review yourself again, and make sure that that choice is the best you can take. because God would never give up on someone who's calling his name and seek him.