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Proofs for God/Religion. Got a good one?

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
So the floor opens. Do you have any proofs for religion or God?

Yes. Given a pantheistic definition of deity, the mere existence of the universe/reality/nature is proof as it is itself, deity. You either agree with this definition or don't, and if you agree it is self-evidently obvious. There is no "proving" a definition of a word that I know of.

To get even more basic, "existing" means a great many things. Existence as an idea is still a type of existing. If you can think about it, it exists, in some sense of the term. Again, for self-evidently obvious reasons. Unless you want to get into the extremes of philosophical skepticism, which derails us into absurd territories. All beliefs at some point stem from acceptance of unprovable assumptions. Faith, if you will. Doesn't matter if it is belief in deity or belief in the chair you're sitting on. Some folks just take some beliefs for granted while others don't. For me, deity existing is as self-evident and obvious as the chair I'm sitting on. Deity is in the chair.
 

Photonic

Ad astra!
they are still dogs, just different varieties of the same kind of animal. DNA can do that.... is it evolution, sure... but will these animals become something completely different, no. A dog will always be a dog whether its large, small, fury, curly haired, straight haried, fuzzy haired, pokerdotted, striped, speckled, long eared, short eared, pointy nosed or flat nose.


_cuteDogsPictureHome.gif

Yes they will, they have in the past, and will in the future.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Yes they will, they have in the past, and will in the future.

thats a 'story', not science.

science is about what is observable, what is testable and what is proven... speculating on how things changed in the past is none of them.
 

muffin8or

Grand Canoe Wizard
DNA is written in such a way that each species of animal is locked into remain that same species.

You Don't know how DNA is written. You've already shown your ignorance on the subject and you continue to do so. Imagine this. DNA is 'written' to create an animal, say a dog. Each aspect of the dog is controlled by different genes. When the dog reproduces these genes might be copied incorrectly because reproduction does that. Look at Down Syndrome babies - they have an extra chromosome, a mistake in reproduction. This incorrect copy of a certain gene may result in a physical change - different eye colour. Scientists found that blue eyed people have a common ancestor because blue eyes were a genetic mutation.

This mutation in the dog could have a beneficial effect or a detrimental one. The negative effect could mean it never gets born because the DNA makes no sense. Or the beneficial one could be that it thrives. If it does thrive then it is likely this gene will be passed to its offspring. Small variations like this accumulate over time which can change a species to the point where it is no longer classified as the original species.

An example of this is lions and tigers. They can still reproduce with each other because they share common ancestry.

DNA isn't shuffled around to make variations within a species. It's the joining of mummy and daddy's DNA that makes that variation. I think the fact that you have no knowledge of even this betrays your ignorance. I urge you to read up on the subject rather than spewing nonsense because it fits what you already believe.
How does flu or the common cold change in order to resist vaccines? Mutations. Look it up.

thats a 'story', not science.

science is about what is observable, what is testable and what is proven... speculating on how things changed in the past is none of them.

Please don't talk about science when you fail to see evolution in similarities in DNA, fossils, physical signs (see recurrent laryngeal nerve Recurrent laryngeal nerve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Observable - Similarities in Great Apes' DNA and ours.
Testable - Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab - life - 09 June 2008 - New Scientist
Proven - Evolution...?

I urge you to look up flu and cold virus mutations. Surely that is demonstrably proven.
Trying to dis/prove God is a fool's game.

I know. I'm trying to show that people's reasons for believing in God is woolly at best. Why would I need to disprove God anyway? The burden of proof is on them as they are making the claim. It;s like me saying that fairies exist in my garden and asking you to now disprove it.

And if there is no proof of God, why believe? It's wishful thinking. People don't like the fact that this life is all there is. Why not believe in fairies and unicorns?

You don't think direct experience is a reason for believing in God?


Never claimed to have the gift of prophecy ;) He, in less words, told me to hold love for even those committing atrocities and to practice peace towards all.

I think that people believe in God because of it. I took umbrage in the fact that I included people like you but you gave me a four word answer, failing to elaborate to any degree.

Did he tell you which religion is correct? I assume Christianity seeing as you say you're one. If he didn't how do you know that's the right religion? And how do you know it wasn't the Buddha talking to you. What you said he said sounded very Buddhist to me. Could also be a Hindu God. Questions, questions...

...there was something that made the universe become as it is today...

Why do you think that? There is no evidence for something with a mind. I don't worship clouds for rain or the sun for heat and light. Why worship either a process that has no mind or something you have no evidence for?
I suppose I may be opening my self to ridicule by even posting here, but I will say what I have many, many times: I don't have any proof of God, that is why I have faith. Let me rephrase- I don't have any scientific evidence of God- which would be the only kind you'd interested in. If you need scientific proof, then you go find it. I don't need it.:)

Why don't you believe in Unicorns and Fairies? Or little leprechauns that own pots of gold? Why not have faith in everything?

And why not follow the Muslim God or the Hindu Gods? They all have conflicting claims as to what is right. In a situation where you have no proof for God and thus no knowledge whatsoever of what he is, who he is, what he does, what he wants you're expected to choose one of thousands of religions and bet eternity on it? Sounds like a malevolent God, a sadistic one.

Yes. Given a pantheistic definition of deity, the mere existence of the universe/reality/nature is proof as it is itself, deity.

Incorrect. At this stage you would have to prove that God is in keeping with the pantheistic definition. Your logic seems to be as follows:

1) God is the universe
2) The universe exists
3) God exists

You need to prove number one, and some philosophers would say number 2 as well, but that's another story.
To get even more basic, "existing" means a great many things. Existence as an idea is still a type of existing. If you can think about it, it exists, in some sense of the term. Again, for self-evidently obvious reasons. Unless you want to get into the extremes of philosophical skepticism, which derails us into absurd territories. All beliefs at some point stem from acceptance of unprovable assumptions. Faith, if you will. Doesn't matter if it is belief in deity or belief in the chair you're sitting on. Some folks just take some beliefs for granted while others don't. For me, deity existing is as self-evident and obvious as the chair I'm sitting on. Deity is in the chair.

You're getting mixed up with definitions. If God exists as an idea then that's all he is - an idea. No one would contest that people have him has an idea but that has no bearing on if a God is actually out there.
At one stage you are talking about philosophical scepticism in relation to existence and calling it something that derails us into absurd territories. At another you're saying that belief that the chair I'm sitting is real needs faith as I can't know it exists, that's philosophical scepticism tight there. The way I see it is that I can feel, smell, see the chair I'm sitting on. So can my friends. It exists more than an idea or concept. Descartes would be sceptical of this but I'm starting from a point of 'some things exist' rather than 'nothing exists.' God can't be seen, smelt or felt so perhaps he doesn't exist as the chair does. This is obviously a basic metaphor but there you go. You still need to prove to me that pantheism is the way to go.
 
Just going to jump in here. :D

Yes. Given a pantheistic definition of deity, the mere existence of the universe/reality/nature is proof as it is itself, deity. You either agree with this definition or don't, and if you agree it is self-evidently obvious. There is no "proving" a definition of a word that I know of.

As muffin8or said, you're following a line of logic which begins by asserting that God is the universe (or reality or nature). If you would define God as simply the universe, as nothing less and nothing more, then what you're essentially saying is that the universe, and anything else which I claim to be the same thing as the universe, exists. So I could say that "fjdjjd" is the universe, and thus "fjdjjd" exists; you've failed to prove anything except that if the universe exists, it exists. :p Even a single deviation from God being the same as the universe, and you'll find that your argument doesn't show that he exists; and if God is the very same thing as the universe, why call him God? Indeed, why call him anything at all; why not just respect that the universe exists, as you most likely do?

What you need to do is to show how a definition of God which is compatible with religious thought (i.e. God as an omnipotent and omniscient being at the least, if not omnibenevolent as well).

To get even more basic, "existing" means a great many things. Existence as an idea is still a type of existing. If you can think about it, it exists, in some sense of the term. Again, for self-evidently obvious reasons. Unless you want to get into the extremes of philosophical skepticism, which derails us into absurd territories.

I think you'll find that most theists want to claim that God is more than just an idea that "exists" in their head; I'd agree that ideas exist, but only in people's minds, whereas most religious people would disagree with God being a figment of their imagination. :p

All beliefs at some point stem from acceptance of unprovable assumptions. Faith, if you will. Doesn't matter if it is belief in deity or belief in the chair you're sitting on. Some folks just take some beliefs for granted while others don't. For me, deity existing is as self-evident and obvious as the chair I'm sitting on. Deity is in the chair.

There is a difference between faith in what is observable, testifiable and has led to a great number of engineering achievements that have revolutionized the world as we know it, and in having faith in something which is neither necessary for existence, nor helpful to progression, nor likely to exist. And if you're saying that the deity is in the chair, well, that too is unproved and merely your opinion.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
Why do you think that? There is no evidence for something with a mind. I don't worship clouds for rain or the sun for heat and light. Why worship either a process that has no mind or something you have no evidence for?

It doesn't have to have a mind, does it?

Do you have to worship Gods? I'm more against whatever God is
 

Photonic

Ad astra!
thats a 'story', not science.

science is about what is observable, what is testable and what is proven... speculating on how things changed in the past is none of them.

No, it's very much a science. It's one of those nice "things that keeps you alive" kind of science.
 

Landerage

Araknor
I believe in God because life makes more sense for me with the idea of God in a logical way first such as no creation without creator, the existence of things beyond human's reach no matter how far science can get, the infinite loop of the question "why", beautiful things u can see in life (sunrise, sunset, nature, wisdom found in the ecosystem), presence of precious minerals, oil, and things hat made life easier and found on earth and not on any other planet.
From a religious part, I found Islam to be the most convenient religion. Miracles found in the Qur'an which impress me every time I remember them, feelings I get reading the Quran knowing that no human being can ever write something similar, rules and laws that Muslim should obey creates the most effective societies and justice that I couldn't find better in other regulations.
On a personal level, different personal experiences, questions being answered after praying for an answer from God, feeling secure and alright when worshipping God affected me the most. And the greatest reason, is that believing in God is the best choice I think I can make supported by Islam and the Qur'an and being invited to do correct things in life and have a good life and gain a better afterlife. Both my mind and heart says having keep my faith is the key to salvation and when I know it is the best choice I can make in life, I must sit k to that choice because there is no better alternative, nor they will be a better one as God says. Knowing also that life is one chance, when you know your going right, stick to it because nobody can ever get back in time.
Another personal reason is that i believe in the 100 percent correct justice, that no human or justice system can ever make. As such the existence of omniscient God supports this justice, because I will never believe that humans who did terrible things to people and never were judged in life, that they will simply die and never suffer for their horrible actions :)
 

muffin8or

Grand Canoe Wizard
It doesn't have to have a mind, does it?

Do you have to worship Gods? I'm more against whatever God is

Why does everyone on this forum play with definitions? You infuriate me. Your beliefs are so abstract that they could apply to anything.

You've called an unknown force God. And then you're against that force. If it is a mindless force then you being against it is as odd as me being against the sea. Or against the sun. Being against means holding the opposite view. You can't hold the opposite view to a mindless force. If it is a force with a mind (i.e. the traditional view of God) then you being against it is basically a ticket to punishment. All this is based on an unknown force.

Why even call the force God? Why can't it be a regular physical process? I assume you don't call electromagnetism or gravity God so why call an unknown physical force God?

What you've done is taken a word (God) twisted it to mean 'thing that started the universe' then applied it to an unknown event/force. And to top it all off you present it to me with the notion that it answers my question. It isn't in keeping with the definition of God I was obviously going for. All we've established is that you think that something created the universe and you are overall 'against' it.
 

Photonic

Ad astra!
Why does everyone on this forum play with definitions? You infuriate me. Your beliefs are so abstract that they could apply to anything.

You've called an unknown force God. And then you're against that force. If it is a mindless force then you being against it is as odd as me being against the sea. Or against the sun. Being against means holding the opposite view. You can't hold the opposite view to a mindless force. If it is a force with a mind (i.e. the traditional view of God) then you being against it is basically a ticket to punishment. All this is based on an unknown force.

Why even call the force God? Why can't it be a regular physical process? I assume you don't call electromagnetism or gravity God so why call an unknown physical force God?

What you've done is taken a word (God) twisted it to mean 'thing that started the universe' then applied it to an unknown event/force. And to top it all off you present it to me with the notion that it answers my question. It isn't in keeping with the definition of God I was obviously going for. All we've established is that you think that something created the universe and you are overall 'against' it.

Welcome to RF.
 

muffin8or

Grand Canoe Wizard
such as no creation without creator
The word 'creation' implies a creator. That's a good technique religious people use, maybe you've picked it up. They use it because they argue that God isn't a creation. Let's modify it. "No existence without a creator." You maintain that God exists. How did he come into being?
the existence of things beyond human's reach no matter how far science can get
What things exist beyond human's reach? Surely if you tell me that then there's proof for God.
the infinite loop of the question "why"
You don't need to find a greater purpose for everything in life. My 3 year old cousin always asks why, maybe you've never let go of that annoying habit
beautiful things u can see in life (sunrise, sunset, nature, wisdom found in the ecosystem)
They are all natural. There is no wisdom in the ecosystem. You've seen something that works and called it wise. The whole point of things in nature is survival; because things survive you call them wise. But you never see the parasitic worm that embeds itself in the eye of a lamb and eats it from the inside out and say 'oh, that's wise.' Take nature as a whole and see the ugly side. See the cancer in babies and down syndrome and famine and death and plague and sweltering heat and bitter cold and terminal illness. Oh how good god is!
presence of precious minerals, oil, and things hat made life easier and found on earth and not on any other planet.
There is a planet 60,000 kilometres in diameter made from pure diamond. There's a precious mineral for you. Oil is made from carbon from dead plants millions of years ago. It is only by the fact that there is life that oil is there, not the other way around. Life adapts to its surroundings, not the other way round.
From a religious part, I found Islam to be the most convenient religion. Miracles found in the Qur'an which impress me every time I remember them, feelings I get reading the Quran knowing that no human being can ever write something similar, rules and laws that Muslim should obey creates the most effective societies and justice that I couldn't find better in other regulations.
Were you born a Muslim or did you convert? I find miracles in Harry Potter to be amazing and a bit more practical than the one's in the Qur'an. You don't know humans can't write better and others would say that they have and in fact they did write the Qur'an. You believe that Saudi Arabia has effective societies? they follow the Qur'an. That's where the GDP is so high because Emirs earn billions each year while regular citizens suffer. Where people are stoned to death for being gay or having sex outside marriage. Where WOMEN CAN'T DRIVE. Where they can't vote. Where they are forced to wear a veil. Where they are subject to honour killings and are treated like property of the males. Oh yes, the Qur'an has created a great society. And don't argue it's been twisted. Because if it were so great it wouldn't get twisted, people would just follow it.
On a personal level, different personal experiences, questions being answered after praying for an answer from God
Have you prayed for a million dollars yet? When will that be granted? Or the ability to fly or world peace? Or to end starvation? Maybe the prayers that have been answered have selfish ones like 'please make me pass my end of year test.' Surely that can't be anything to do with you, it must have been God. What's your position on free will?
feeling secure and alright when worshipping God affected me the most.
That can't be a placebo effect...
And the greatest reason, is that believing in God is the best choice I think I can make supported by Islam and the Qur'an and being invited to do correct things in life and have a good life and gain a better afterlife.
The Qur'an says it's right so it must be right. Right? Wrong. Self fulfilling prophecies aren't impressive. Why can't you live a good life for a better society. Are you so selfish that you need an eternity in heaven just to behave yourself? Wow, I would not like to live with you...
Both my mind and heart says having keep my faith is the key to salvation and when I know it is the best choice I can make in life, I must sit k to that choice because there is no better alternative, nor they will be a better one as God says. Knowing also that life is one chance, when you know you're going right, stick to it because nobody can ever get back in time.
17 Rakaats of prayer each day at roughly 2 minutes each (That's extra Dua included) equates to 34 minutes a day. That's 7*34 - 238 minutes or just under 4 hours a week. Spend that time at a soup kitchen on a Sunday feeding homeless people. There's your better alternative. What about all that time at mosque? All adds up to wasted time.

Another personal reason is that i believe in the 100 percent correct justice, that no human or justice system can ever make. As such the existence of omniscient God supports this justice, because I will never believe that humans who did terrible things to people and never were judged in life, that they will simply die and never suffer for their horrible actions :)

Justice is a construct made up by people. You've then said how can people not go through what I arbitrarily call justice. Then you leap to the conclusion that there must be an afterlife. How about this? People do bad things in life. They die. That's it. Why does there need to be a higher purpose or justice apart from 'because God said so'?

This is a lot to take in so I want you to answer these:
1) How did God come into being?
2) Example of something outside of human reach
3) Were you born a Muslim or did you convert?
4) Which effective societies did the Qur'an make?
5) What is your position on free will?
Feel free to say what you want but to understand your position better I'd like answers to these questions.
 

Landerage

Araknor
Well my English is limited a little, so just seize the idea that I have, I believe in God able to exist by himself with no ending and no beginning. And that's related to time and space, I believe there is no time and no space, and in such a "place" something with no end and no beginning can exist, God.
All I'm telling combined together made it a better choice for me to have a great faith in God, you can't divide those elements and see how each of them is a reason for my faith.
In life u can have two perceptions of things, I walk and move to a certain position, or the whole world move and I stand still. Wisdom can be found in nature, and teaches great moral values to human and i never said everything have wisdom, some things are chosen for reasons we do not know yet.
I wasn't a Muslim but I converted at a young age, even though my family is Muslim but had nothing to do with my choice of religion. A correct application of Islam rules can not be found at this time, but can read about in some of the history. But theoricaly it would be what i said it would. You can't judge a religion by seeing people who claim to apply it, the correct thing to do, is go back to the core and see what Islam truly calls for.
Prayers are not a way to test God, and if prayer not answered proves nothing because it might be answered in a out of time frame. And before blaming God for the starving and misery in this world, why we don't blame humans who committed errors and deviated many later generations towards wrong paths.
I didn't narrow my opinions for getting heaven or the things u said. Why would i not want a good afterlife if I know it's there ? That would be wrong. And why I cant win life and lead for a better society in life and also gain an afterlife. That not being selfish that being " not stupid"
Each human being is judged in the afterlife based on what he did himself, prayers are a duty just like home works. Feeding the poor is towards pleasing God aswell, and its wasted time in ur point because u don't believe prayers can do aching. So no comment on that.
My standing to free will, hmmmm it is given by God to humans, it's a power of choice given to people. god know what we will choose but doesn't change the fact that we chose it. A correct judgement would be: I know what is the right choice to make but still I did the choose the wrong choice, punishment would be made then. Free will is the only reason for God's judgement
 
To the OP (muffin8or): is there any reason why you're allowing personal experience
on here as an argument for God? Surely most theists would just end up by replying that they have seen God or felt his presence and thus they believe in him (which is a justified explanation subjectively, but is unlikely to mean anything to anyone else).

Well my English is limited a little, so just seize the idea that I have, I believe in God able to exist by himself with no ending and no beginning. And that's related to time and space, I believe there is no time and no space, and in such a "place" something with no end and no beginning can exist, God.
All I'm telling combined together made it a better choice for me to have a great faith in God, you can't divide those elements and see how each of them is a reason for my faith.

You "believe" a lot of things, but this thread is about "proofs for God/religion", not for a list of beliefs, and without rationalizing, giving evidence for or otherwise justifying your beliefs, this post is nothing more than a statement of what you think is true rather than an explanation of why, which you seem unwilling to provide (you appear to take the position that it is all faith in these things, nothing which can be explained or spelt out; correct me if I'm wrong here). But if you think it can't be spelt out, what are you doing on this thread? :confused:

In life u can have two perceptions of things, I walk and move to a certain position, or the whole world move and I stand still. Wisdom can be found in nature, and teaches great moral values to human and i never said everything have wisdom, some things are chosen for reasons we do not know yet.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here at all. In fact, the more I think about your meaning, the less I understand about it. Obviously, this can be put down to your lack of English knowledge, so I'll just skip this bit out.

I wasn't a Muslim but I converted at a young age, even though my family is Muslim but had nothing to do with my choice of religion. A correct application of Islam rules can not be found at this time, but can read about in some of the history. But theoricaly it would be what i said it would. You can't judge a religion by seeing people who claim to apply it, the correct thing to do, is go back to the core and see what Islam truly calls for.

Well, you're not actually telling us what "Islam truly calls for"; rather, you're telling us to find out. Wouldn't it be better, for the purposes of this thread and argument, just to tell us straight away, rather than insisting that one needs to be in Saudi Arabia to understand Islam? I know someone who has a PhD in Islamic Studies and is a devout Muslim, but who admits that many of the things done in the name of Islam are to be condemned, and also that a lot of its teachings have become outdated and may be considered flawed. Still, my main contention with this section of your post is that once again, you're not actually arguing for God or religion.

Prayers are not a way to test God, and if prayer not answered proves nothing because it might be answered in a out of time frame.

Then why would you be thankful when God does grant a prayer? Isn't it ridiculously unfair to say "Praise be the Lord" whenever anything goes your way, and then ignore it, saying that it might be dealt with later, if anything doesn't? Shouldn't you be weighing up the number of your requests which get answered with those that don't, equally, and then making a judgement? Again, this is something that comes from a belief in God, not an argument for it.

And before blaming God for the starving and misery in this world, why we don't blame humans who committed errors and deviated many later generations towards wrong paths.

Because it is through God that the world was created, and our race, in such a way that these "errors" and "deviations" arose. If, of course, God exists. Your argument is similar to the free-will counter-argument.

I didn't narrow my opinions for getting heaven or the things u said. Why would i not want a good afterlife if I know it's there ? That would be wrong. And why I cant win life and lead for a better society in life and also gain an afterlife. That not being selfish that being " not stupid"

I think you're hinting towards Pascal's Gambit here; either that, or you're just saying "why not" in the sense that since you believe in God anyway, you may as well aim to get everything, in which case, once again, your place in this thread is in doubt.

Each human being is judged in the afterlife based on what he did himself, prayers are a duty just like home works. Feeding the poor is towards pleasing God aswell, and its wasted time in ur point because u don't believe prayers can do aching. So no comment on that.

Unbelievable - didn't you just say that prayers were not a way to test for God? How can you attribute everything good to him, and ignore everything bad, and still take yourself seriously?

My standing to free will, hmmmm it is given by God to humans, it's a power of choice given to people. god know what we will choose but doesn't change the fact that we chose it. A correct judgement would be: I know what is the right choice to make but still I did the choose the wrong choice, punishment would be made then. Free will is the only reason for God's judgement

Not an argument, but then muffin8or asked you for your opinion, and him being the OP, I guess I can't argue with this part of the post. That's looking at it as a statement, of course; since you've provided no justification whatsoever, it's hard to look at it as an argument.

Can a book made by humans predict a detailed future?

In what way do any religious books "predict a detailed future"?
 

muffin8or

Grand Canoe Wizard
Well my English is limited a little, so just seize the idea that I have
Your English has taken a turn for the worse. I've looked at your other posts and its better there. Put some effort into it.
I believe in God able to exist by himself with no ending and no beginning. And that's related to time and space, I believe there is no time and no space, and in such a "place" something with no end and no beginning can exist, God.
Why can't the universe have always existed? Why bring in a supernatural being to explain stuff when that being is unexplainable?
I'm telling combined together made it a better choice for me to have a great faith in God, you can't divide those elements and see how each of them is a reason for my faith.
Each reason for your faith has no standing. Thus combined they have no worth.
some things are chosen for reasons we do not know yet.
Or maybe nothing is chosen for any higher purpose and there is no need to read so far into it.
I wasn't a Muslim but I converted at a young age, even though my family is Muslim but had nothing to do with my choice of religion
Don't kid yourself. You were indoctrinated by your Muslim family. You were brought up a Muslim and decided to stick with it. You have no reason to follow Islam specifically. How do you know that Hinduism isn't the way to go. Or Buddhism or Zoroastrianism? You don't have an in depth knowledge of all religions so you could well be wrong. Actually, since we know nothing about god and there are thousands of claims about him, your claim is probable to be wrong

A correct application of Islam rules can not be found at this time, but can read about in some of the history. But theoricaly it would be what i said it would. You can't judge a religion by seeing people who claim to apply it, the correct thing to do, is go back to the core and see what Islam truly calls for.
4:34 "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard."
Devoutly obedient, eh?
if prayer not answered proves nothing because it might be answered in a out of time frame. And before blaming God for the starving and misery in this world, why we don't blame humans who committed errors and deviated many later generations towards wrong paths.
"cancer in babies and down syndrome and famine and death and plague and sweltering heat and bitter cold and terminal illness" is not caused by humans. It's controllable by God.
And prayers are never answered. If they seem answered it's a natural event. Why bring superstition into it?
My standing to free will, hmmmm it is given by God to humans, it's a power of choice given to people. god know what we will choose but doesn't change the fact that we chose it. A correct judgement would be: I know what is the right choice to make but still I did the choose the wrong choice, punishment would be made then. Free will is the only reason for God's judgement
And here is the interesting bit. This is the part I want you to respond to. If we all have free will how does god grant a prayer. Say you pray for money God must move that money from someone else to you. What about that someone else's free will? Or a good test mark. The examiner's free will to judge what you know is being interfered with. Heck, your own free will to learn is being tampered with. Praying for better health? What about the free will of the person who poisoned you? Where does that go? God cannot intervene without ruining someone's free will.
And if God is all knowing then at the point of creation he knew exactly what you were going to do and if you are going to hell or not. So why create us or put us in hellfire for all eternity if he knows exactly where we end up? What an evil god.
I don't know how you live in Utah with such bad English. then again, maybe you're putting it on.
 

muffin8or

Grand Canoe Wizard
Can a book made by humans predict a detailed future?

The future may be detailed but is the prediction? Hit us with the verse. Bear in mind that the older passages of the Bible were edited by Greek philosophers. Some passages of the bible have been shown to be edited to fit parts that were later written.

Go on, I'm all ears
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Having studied only a handful of religious proofs I know I shouldn't be reaching any conclusions. But from what I've seen it all seems to be unconvincing by the end. The cosmological argument argues everything had a cause except the first cause which seems inconsistent. The teleological argument doesn't take into account small changes over time making up complex things we see today. Rather it asserts that a complex thing simply must have a designer. The ontological argument defines God into existence but I don't know how it deals with conflicting claims about the nature of God. Arguments from morality and love etc. are all on shaky ground.

So the floor opens. Do you have any proofs for religion or God? If they are or are part of the arguments above don't hesitate to make your points. I'm all ears and would love more light to shine on these arguments :) I'm not looking for strictly logical proofs but rather persuasive proofs. Feel free to bring in why you believe in God or personal experiences.

Muffin8or

BTW I will argue against the big G :D
"No one can see God's face and live." Wouldn't "seeing God's face" equate to empirical proof? Perhaps, as the account says, we can only see God's back side -- that is, God is not approached from empirical evidence, but from intuition and metaphor.

Wouldn't that render your attempts here meaningless? One doesn't waste time looking for apples in an orange grove. One also doesn't waste time looking for proof of God within the confines of human understanding.
 
You don't need to find a greater purpose for everything in life. My 3 year old cousin always asks why, maybe you've never let go of that annoying habit

Don't kid yourself. You were indoctrinated by your Muslim family. You were brought up a Muslim and decided to stick with it.


LOL! Hilarious! If we could put quotes in our signatures, these would be in mine. ;)

"No one can see God's face and live." Wouldn't "seeing God's face" equate to empirical proof? Perhaps, as the account says, we can only see God's back side -- that is, God is not approached from empirical evidence, but from intuition and metaphor.

Wouldn't that render your attempts here meaningless? One doesn't waste time looking for apples in an orange grove. One also doesn't waste time looking for proof of God within the confines of human understanding.

Why would you assume the existence of God with no evidence when it's so improbable, just because it's said to be outside the realm of your understanding? If I write fiction about some great being beyond people's understanding, should I go around telling people to accept it with the logic that it is, by definition, beyond their understanding? You cannot tell people to abandon the mind-view which has led to consistent scientific advances and achieved so much as to genuinely become the modern world-view in favour of something just because the latter is "not within the confines of their understanding".
 
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McBell

Unbound
"No one can see God's face and live." Wouldn't "seeing God's face" equate to empirical proof? Perhaps, as the account says, we can only see God's back side -- that is, God is not approached from empirical evidence, but from intuition and metaphor.

Wouldn't that render your attempts here meaningless? One doesn't waste time looking for apples in an orange grove. One also doesn't waste time looking for proof of God within the confines of human understanding.
I'm kinda confused here...
Are you saying that not only do you have to look for god beyond your own understanding, but beyond the understanding of all human kind?
 

muffin8or

Grand Canoe Wizard
"No one can see God's face and live." Wouldn't "seeing God's face" equate to empirical proof? Perhaps, as the account says, we can only see God's back side -- that is, God is not approached from empirical evidence, but from intuition and metaphor.

Wouldn't that render your attempts here meaningless? One doesn't waste time looking for apples in an orange grove. One also doesn't waste time looking for proof of God within the confines of human understanding.

"No one can see God's face and not live"
^^ This has as much validity as your statement.
Although there seems to be some internal conflict. Was Jesus not gOd and didn't many people look at his face? Now you're arguing exodus vs. New testament.

To sum up your statement - there is no empirical or logical proof for God.

If we have no proof of God we cannot know anything about his nature (he could be anything.) We should therefore just blindly choose a religion and stick with it. Sucks to be one of the 99% of religious people who have been indoctrinated.

I'll pass.
 
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