Prop 8 Support Defense for those of us who are LDS or like-minded in moral values

[Magic Man]

Yeah, I suppose attempted gang-rape of guests could be considered a form of inhospitality... very, very extreme inhospitality.

Yeah, I prefer to use something more like the silent treatment, but I guess to each his own.

 

[deseretgov]

You are certainly free to believe what you want about gay marriage, but why should the country write legislation based on your religious beliefs? You can't expect the general public to trust a living prophet in a church that didn't allow African-Americans in the clergy until nearly 1980. They seem to be slower than everyone else when it comes to issues of equality. :sorry1:

A person should not be required to check their religious beliefs at the door when voting on issues.

Um...you are aware that the Nation of Deseret ceased to exist when the area it was in became US territory, right? When Brigham Young found out that they were back inside the States they immediately started the process to become a state.

Instead they got territorial status at the time (Utah Territory), and it was one heck of a battle, but in the end the Nation of Deseret became (at least in part) the states of California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, Oregon, and Utah.

Yes I am aware of that history.

 

[Sententia]

A person should not be required to check their religious beliefs at the door when voting on issues.
Yes I am aware of that history.

Do you believe all men and women were created equal? Do you believe everyone has a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

Are people who are gay, blue or born with 3 testes somehow less then you? Do you think less of them? Does it matter if they believe in jesus, shiva or allah?

Marriage is a legal contract that grants legal rights and regardless of a persons color, lover or religion they are entitled to the same equal legal privileges and rights.

 

[texan1]

A person should not be required to check their religious beliefs at the door when voting on issues.

Yes I agree. But this issue shouldn't have been on the ballot in the first place imo. I don't think we should ammend the constitution to take away someone's rights based on a religious belief. It is a little disturbing to me that if a church has enough money, they can impose their beliefs on others (as the Mormon Church did with a $20 million dollar campaign.)

 

[deseretgov]

Do you believe all men and women were created equal? Do you believe everyone has a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

Yes. So long as a person's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness does not violate the rights of another. Just as with anything. As long as it dosn't violate the rights of another.

Are people who are gay, blue or born with 3 testes somehow less then you? Do you think less of them? Does it matter if they believe in jesus, shiva or allah?

No I don't think less of a gay person. I think less of what they do. I believe in loving the sinner but hating the sin.

Marriage is a legal contract that grants legal rights and regardless of a persons color, lover or religion they are entitled to the same equal legal privileges and rights.

Marriage is an institution created by God. Unfortunately people have and will continue to abuse it. What homosexuals do in their bedroom is none of my business.

 

[texan1]

What homosexuals do in their bedroom is none of my business.

I wish the leadership of the Mormon Church felt this way.

 

[Sententia]

Yes. So long as a person's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness does not violate the rights of another. Just as with anything. As long as it dosn't violate the rights of another.



No I don't think less of a gay person. I think less of what they do. I believe in loving the sinner but hating the sin.



Marriage is an institution created by God. Unfortunately people have and will continue to abuse it. What homosexuals do in their bedroom is none of my business.

Marriage has both a religious and a legal connection. You as a member of the mormon church can refuse to marry gay and lesbians... You can refuse to seal them. But on a secular legal playing field they are entitled to the same rights you are and should be allowed to be legally married. What religion would recognize that does not matter... Its a civil and personal rights issue.

You have your personal opinion and your religious practice and in america your are allowed both and in fact your personal beliefs are protected. In america though we believe EVERYONE was created with equal and inalienable rights... you cant kill people cause they eat meat and your a vegetarian... its not right... even though they eat meat they still get the right to life... and liberty and the pursuit of happiness...

All the sudden mormons think that no... gays are less and dont get the same rights... and no they cant be happy or have the same libertys...

Wrong. On so many levels. Espcially as a minorty growing religion in america... its hateful, prideful, judgemental, anti-american and wrong.

It makes me sad. And not all mormons back this attack on liberty and the american way. Why their voice isnt being heard I dont know. I am not a mormon. All I can look at is millions of dollars and phone calls and minutes of time to push the mormon beliefs into the secular level and blurring the line of seperation between governement and religion. And the whole party line of individuals donated not the church is ridiculous when you even look at the conversations that take place here and the amount of money that came from such a small percentage... These donations btw are public and online and available for any to look at...

The one thing I would think every american regardless of race, religion or ethnic background could agree on is freedom. This divisive hatred and attack on civil liberty is disgusting and revolting to me.

 

[Luminous]

Maybe it is a weak argument, but it is stronger and more realistic than the egalitarian ideal. But even if I cited some examples, like the disconnect between sex and parenting seen in at least one study, you would still want something more. You would dismiss indications of social disintegration everywhere and the collapse of populations in many European countries so eagerly exemplified by the homosexual community as having nothing to do with society sanctioning homosexual behavior. The "liberal" mind (which isn't liberal at all in the classical sense of the word) is so self-absorbed it cannot make correlations: it cannot see the interrelatedness of all things, it cannot see that everything is connected and nothing happens in isolation. It wants only to satisfy its "infantile claims to entitlement, indulgence and compensation."

The liberal mind can see this far better than the conservative mind

It wants freedom to be synonymous with license.

What is freedom synonymous with? religious censure? Yours is the logic of muslims who wish to forcibly viel their women.

It mistakes tolerance for weakness and thinks it can get its way by creating and reinforcing perceptions of victimization.

well boo-hoo for YOU!

This infantile and undisciplined mindset can be traced to Cartesian dualism and materialism--the false notion that things and beings exist in relative isolation and circumstances can be changed without affecting the whole.

What you are saying is that people are inherently homosexual and need the church and the religous patsys to force them not to be. gayness is not nurtured in a child, if it was, then where did the first gay person come from? God's will? its not some disease that can be caught.

 

[Katzpur]

its not some disease that can be catched

"Caught."

 

[Luminous]

The LDS should become a political party for (Iranian like) theocracy. It's what you want, isn't it?

 

[Watchmen]

The LDS should become a political party for (Iranian like) theocracy. It's what you want, isn't it?

Ahhh.....No.


Statements like that make me think you want to become the next Hannity.

 

[Sunstone]

The "liberal" mind (which isn't liberal at all in the classical sense of the word) is so self-absorbed it cannot make correlations: it cannot see the interrelatedness of all things, it cannot see that everything is connected and nothing happens in isolation. It wants only to satisfy its "infantile claims to entitlement, indulgence and compensation." It wants freedom to be synonymous with license. It mistakes tolerance for weakness and thinks it can get its way by creating and reinforcing perceptions of victimization.

This infantile and undisciplined mindset can be traced to Cartesian dualism and materialism--the false notion that things and beings exist in relative isolation and circumstances can be changed without affecting the whole. Maybe they will get their way, but it will be a pyrrhic victory, and in the end, short-lived.

Your imaginings about the "liberal mind" are, as is usual for you, unsupported by fact. However, it seems you are projecting the weaknesses of the "authoritarian mind" onto liberals. And here's a nice discussion of the evidence for such a mind. What you've said about liberals much more accurately describes authoritarians.

 

[Luminous]

Ahhh.....No.


Statements like that make me think you want to become the next Hannity.

Then stop being a group active in politics and go back to your corner of the world.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

its not some disease that can be catched

"Caught."

Nice cautch.

 

[gnomon]

Marriage is an institution created by God. Unfortunately people have and will continue to abuse it. What homosexuals do in their bedroom is none of my business.

Proving marriage was created by God would go a long way in showing that the so called religious privilege argument actually means anything.

I'm sure homosexuals don't care what you do in your bedroom either. I know I don't even though I possess a strong hope that what you do in your bedroom does not involve procreation.

 

[Draka]

Yes. So long as a person's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness does not violate the rights of another. Just as with anything. As long as it dosn't violate the rights of another.

Right. So your right to believe and worship how you want shouldn't, in any way, violate the rights of anyone to get married. Pretty plain and simple so far.

No I don't think less of a gay person. I think less of what they do. I believe in loving the sinner but hating the sin.

Then, if you love the sinner, you have a funny way of showing it by protesting that which would make them happy and doing whatever you can to make sure they are treated like second-class citizens...not worthy of the very same rights as you. Your "loving" sure sounds like abusing to me.

Marriage is an institution created by God. Unfortunately people have and will continue to abuse it. What homosexuals do in their bedroom is none of my business.

Proof please? Please provide proof that marriage was created by god. Then please explain why atheists getting married, or any other religious followers which deny your specific god, are not protested against with as much vehemence as homosexuals. For aren't their marriages and ceremonies not only an affront to your very concept of marriage, but out and out blasphemy as well?

 

[Watchmen]

Then stop being a group active in politics and go back to your corner of the world.

#1: Religions, churches, charities, non-profits, and other organizations are all free to take part in the political process whether you like it or not.

#2: Not all Mormons supported Prop 8. In fact, on the RF, the Mormons who did support Prop 8 are the minority. Given that fact, maybe you could stop stereotyping and bashing all Mormons. I voted against Prop 8 and you treat me like trash. Maybe I was wrong to vote the way I did. I was trying to show tolerance and when things didn't go the gay way they respond with intolerance towards me.

#3: The LDS do not have a "corner of the world." While not a mega-religion like Catholicism, the LDS are in all corners of the world.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No I don't think less of a gay person. I think less of what they do. I believe in loving the sinner but hating the sin.

I hate what those who would deny marriage to same-sex couples do. What changes to the law do you think I should campaign for to reflect my hate?

 

[Watchmen]

I hate what those who would deny marriage to same-sex couples do. What changes to the law do you think I should campaign for to reflect my hate?

That's a logical fallacy. It assumes all who supported Prop 8 are haters. That's not the case.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's a logical fallacy. It assumes all who supported Prop 8 are haters. That's not the case.

I assumed no such thing. deseretgov stated his "love the sinner, hate the sin" approach as a reason for opposing same-sex marriage.

I wasn't addressing all people who voted for Prop 8; I was only addressing deseretgov's implied point: that it can be valid for public policy to be based on a person's individual hatred.

I really do hate the idea of denying marriage to same-sex couples, but I also believe in certain protection for all positions, so normally, I wouldn't want to modify the law to somehow punish people who take positions that I hate. My point is just one of consistency: if deseretgov's hatred of the "sin" of homosexuality justifies his position on same-sex marriage, I'm just curious what positions he would say my hatred of the "sin" of denying equal protection under the law might justify.