Propaganda: Why it is necessary for Islam

[Gharib]

but it could not have been tampered with untill after the quran was revealed can it. but there are examples of Torah older than the Quran that are the same as the ones today ,so what is going on?

it was changed before the quran came along.

 

[McBell]

yes, a common answer by a common non muslim.

You do an awful lot of hiding behind that "you're not a muslim" line.

isn't there anything else? can't you be more creative than that?

There is no need for anything else.
No need to be any more creative.
Facts are the facts, regardless of your like or dislike of them.

your basis, that islam is not a true religion, is faith and belief also. if not then wheres the proof that islam is a false religion and isn't from god?

I will kindly ask that you stop dictating to me what I believe.
Your sad attempt at the strawman is rather amusing, or would be if you could do so without dictating to me what I believe.

Please show where I said that Islam is not a true religion?
You can't, because I haven't.

And you got it backwards, the onus is not on me to prove you wrong, the onus is on you to prove yourself right.

You know you cannot prove yourself right, so you attempt to turn it around, knowing that they can not prove you wrong either.

So you take your shallow victory and use it to further ratify your beliefs.
It is all you have.

do you have any evidence of proof, cos the way i see it you are unable/unwilling to see past your beliefs just like anyother non muslim?

You have no more proof than anyone else.

Kettle, meet pot.
You have absolutely no idea what my beliefs are.

 

[Gharib]

thats what i'm talking about, a serious Mestemia, not posting those silly cartoons, i can finally see what a smart man you are. nice to have you this way.

You do an awful lot of hiding behind that "you're not a muslim" line.

nah, i do use it, sometimes though. and we are talking about muslims and non muslims, this is a conversation between the 2 ok.

There is no need for anything else.
No need to be any more creative.
Facts are the facts, regardless of your like or dislike of them.

no, they are your beliefs, facts are beyound that.

I will kindly ask that you stop dictating to me what I believe.
Your sad attempt at the strawman is rather amusing, or would be if you could do so without dictating to me what I believe.

i never siad you believe in anything, you must have me confused with someone else.

Please show where I said that Islam is not a true religion?
You can't, because I haven't.

well, if someone believes islam is a true religion, then that someone will not go asking muslims about proof that islam is a real religion.

so please don't go all reverse psychology on me, ok. thats a good way to try and prove me wrong, but it just doesn't cut it with me.

you see,a non muslims ussualy says this;

1+1=2 (this is wha someone who says islam is false religion says, and asks for proof)

where as you say this;3-1=2 you haven't said islam is false, but want proof.
why would you need proof unless you believed that islam is false?

And you got it backwards, the onus is not on me to prove you wrong, the onus is on you to prove yourself right.

every muslim has alread done that here. don't you get it, your belief that islam is false isn;t letting you to accept islam as a true religion.

You know you cannot prove yourself right, so you attempt to turn it around, knowing that they can not prove you wrong either.

yes that was a good manouver wasn't it? .

so when a muslim sproves islam true, you say,that truth is based on the islamic belief and isn't actual proof, well the same reasoning that you give us that islam has not been proven true is as much a belief as ours is. so you don't have any proof to dissprove islam but i do and even though it may consist of the quran atleast it is a start, what start does your reasoning have "because i say so"?

So you take your shallow victory and use it to further ratify your beliefs.
It is all you have.

no i have much more, see you believe i have only that, i do know your beliefs, see how?

You have no more proof than anyone else.

maybe, have you seen me doing that, i mean posting my proof on here?

Kettle, meet pot.
You have absolutely no idea what my beliefs are.

sure i do, well not all but the ones you've told me about. read above to see them.

 

[kai]

it was changed before the quran came along.

the Quran dissagrees with you. or at the very least does not say so.

"How come they come unto thee for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment for them?" (5:43)


it had to be corrupted after the prophets death because the quran does not say its corrupt only the jews ignoring of it. and yet we still have Torah older than and younger than the Quran but the same.

 

[Gharib]

the Quran dissagrees with you. or at the very least does not say so.

"How come they come unto thee for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment for them?" (5:43)

well posting just one verse does not really help me. i will check it out and let you know, i need to sleep now, i've got work in the morning. 6am start

 

[McBell]

nah, i do use it, sometimes though. and we are talking about muslims and non muslims, this is a conversation between the 2 ok.

Oh, so it is merely to remind yourself which set of replies to use?

no, they are your beliefs, facts are beyound that.

What are you talking about?

i never siad you believe in anything, you must have me confused with someone else.

Denial?
A direct quote:

"your basis, that islam is not a true religion, is faith and belief also."
​

Perhaps you do not know what it is you post?

well, if someone believes islam is a true religion, then that someone will not go asking muslims about proof that islam is a real religion.

You have me confused with someone else.
I never asked for any proof.
I merely pointed out that that which was presented and called proof, wasn't.

so please don't go all reverse psychology on me, ok. thats a good way to try and prove me wrong, but it just doesn't cut it with me.

I am not trying any reverse anything.

you see,a non muslims ussualy says this;

1+1=2 (this is wha someone who says islam is false religion says, and asks for proof)

where as you say this;3-1=2 you haven't said islam is false, but want proof.
why would you need proof unless you believed that islam is false?

Here is the crux of your problem.
Stop replying to what you think is being said, and actually read, understand and reply to what actually is said.

every muslim has alread done that here. don't you get it, your belief that islam is false isn;t letting you to accept islam as a true religion.

Again you dictate to me my belief.

yes that was a good manouver wasn't it? .

Only if you accept dirty dishonest tricks as acceptable to your god.

so when a muslim sproves islam true, you say,that truth is based on the islamic belief and isn't actual proof, well the same reasoning that you give us that islam has not been proven true is as much a belief as ours is. so you don't have any proof to dissprove islam but i do and even though it may consist of the quran atleast it is a start, what start does your reasoning have "because i say so"?

You do not listen very well.
Or you ignore what is being said.
Or perhaps you merely ignore the parts you dislike...

Islam has not been proven true to anyone outside of the Islamic faith anymore than Christianity has been proven true outside the Christian faith, etc.

Your blatant Kent Hovind tactic is nothing short of pitiful.

no i have much more, see you believe i have only that, i do know your beliefs, see how?

Only in your own mind and perhaps to you choir.
You go with what you can get, right?

maybe, have you seen me doing that, i mean posting my proof on here?

Fair enough.

sure i do, well not all but the ones you've told me about. read above to see them.

LOL
No, you are merely making assumptions about my beliefs based upon my arguments in this thread.

Please take note of my title...

 

[Fatihah]

I see words. Do you have proof? <Grin>

Response: (Smile) No I do not.

 

[Fatihah]

It is not proof because it is nothing more than wishful thinking on your part.
It is nothing more than a preaching to the choir.

If post #181 is all the "proof" you need, then good for you.
However, it is sorely lacking for anyone not already predisposed towards a like belief.

The truly sad part is that you are unable/unwilling to see past your own beliefs.

Response: You haven't answered the question. Can you produce a chapter like the qur'an's?

 

[McBell]

Response: You haven't answered the question. Can you produce a chapter like the qur'an's?

Completely irrelevant.
Several people have created chapters like the Koran.
Check out the Bible for one example.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

You know, a lot of people have been making a big deal about trying to produce a chapter like the qur'an. I don't see why the fuss. If someone produces it, it seems that it would prove that the Qur'an is either false, or degraded from it's original form. If not, it doesn't seem to prove anything. I mean, if the Qur'an is manmade, why would that mean that it was reproducible? There are a lot of manmade works of literature that I am quite certain could never be replicated. Why should the Qur'an, which is obviously a great work (whether man made or God sent) be any different? Why would the inability to reproduce a similar work mean that it is from God?

 

[McBell]

You know, a lot of people have been making a big deal about trying to produce a chapter like the qur'an. I don't see why the fuss. If someone produces it, it seems that it would prove that the Qur'an is either false, or degraded from it's original form. If not, it doesn't seem to prove anything. I mean, if the Qur'an is manmade, why would that mean that it was reproducible? There are a lot of manmade works of literature that I am quite certain could never be replicated. Why should the Qur'an, which is obviously a great work (whether man made or God sent) be any different? Why would the inability to reproduce a similar work mean that it is from God?

It doesn't prove anything either way.
It is just yet another Kent Hovind challenge that helps to ratify his beliefs.

 

[Fatihah]

Completely irrelevant.
Several people have created chapters like the Koran.
Check out the Bible for one example.

Response: My friend, your inability to answer a direct question speaks volumes.

 

[Fatihah]

You know, a lot of people have been making a big deal about trying to produce a chapter like the qur'an. I don't see why the fuss. If someone produces it, it seems that it would prove that the Qur'an is either false, or degraded from it's original form. If not, it doesn't seem to prove anything. I mean, if the Qur'an is manmade, why would that mean that it was reproducible? There are a lot of manmade works of literature that I am quite certain could never be replicated. Why should the Qur'an, which is obviously a great work (whether man made or God sent) be any different? Why would the inability to reproduce a similar work mean that it is from God?

Response: Simple. If it is from man, than surely a man should be able to make it. But as we have seen, no one here nor has any human ever produced a chapter like the qur'an's. So the concept of the qur'an being man made does not stand on anything.

 

[Alla Prima]

Response: Simple. If it is from man, than surely a man should be able to make it. But as we have seen, no one here nor has any human ever produced a chapter like the qur'an's. So the concept of the qur'an being man made does not stand on anything.

He just got finished telling you there are man-made works of literature that could never be replicated. Shakespere comes to mind. By your reasoning Shakespere was God. Actually that's probably not far from the truth LOL.

 

[McBell]

Response: My friend, your inability to answer a direct question speaks volumes.

To answer your completely irrelevant question, I do not know.

There, now fly back to your flock and claim your shallow irrelevant "victory".

 

[kai]

Response: Simple. If it is from man, than surely a man should be able to make it. But as we have seen, no one here nor has any human ever produced a chapter like the qur'an's. So the concept of the qur'an being man made does not stand on anything.

In order to" produce a chapter like the Quran" means it has to be judged by a Muslim now for a muslim to even consider a man made work the equal of Gods work would be shirk. so although its a good conundrum its absolutely useless at proving anything, No muslim would ever agree to the equal of the Quran so it only self reinforces muslim beleif. It seems to be an unanswerable riddle, but it's not. You know the answer, even if you don't think you do. It's as plain as the nose on your face.

 

[McBell]

In order to" produce a chapter like the Quran" means it has to be judged by a Muslim now for a muslim to even consider a man made work the equal of Gods work would be shirk. so although its a good conundrum its absolutely useless at proving anything, No muslim would ever agree to the equal of the Quran so it only self reinforces muslim beleif. It seems to be an unanswerable riddle, but it's not. You know the answer, even if you don't think you do. It's as plain as the nose on your face.

Thus making the whole "challenge" nothing more than a Kent Hovind style farce.

 

[kai]

Thus making the whole "challenge" nothing more than a Kent Hovind style farce.

and in fact making islam a little less convincing to me.

 

[McBell]

and in fact making islam a little less convincing to me.

If my sole exposure to Islam was the internet and or this forum, I would have to agree with you 110%.

However, I have a couple neighbors who are Muslim, though a few Muslims on here would claim otherwise, so I am not limited by the most vocal Muslims on the internet.

 

[kai]

If my sole exposure to Islam was the internet and or this forum, I would have to agree with you 110%.

However, I have a couple neighbors who are Muslim, though a few Muslims on here would claim otherwise, so I am not limited by the most vocal Muslims on the internet.

good point ,one which i agree upon.
But i have found the more Muslims i meet(and i have met many from Eastern Europe to the middle east) the more harder it is to define Islam.
I think i recall someone telling me Islam is not defined by Muslims.