Propaganda: Why it is necessary for Islam

[McBell]

Response: But Muhammad has. His knowledge is from Allah and surely Allah knows all.

The thing is, your reply is nothing more than three opinions that are based entirely on your faith in your beliefs.

 

[Fatihah]

The thing is, your reply is nothing more than three opinions that are based entirely on your faith in your beliefs.

Response: How so?

 

[McBell]

Response: How so?

Because you can not prove any of them.
And no, the extensive overuse of the Forer Effect is not even legitimate evidence, let alone proof.

 

[Fatihah]

Because you can not prove any of them.
And no, the extensive overuse of the Forer Effect is not even legitimate evidence, let alone proof.

Response: The qur'an is the true word of Allah and has never been corrupted and the proof of this is in post #183 of page 19 of the thread.

 

[YmirGF]

Response: The qur'an is the true word of Allah and has never been corrupted and the proof of this is in post #183 of page 19 of the thread.

Still flogging that tired horse, I see, Fatihah?

And actually, it was supposed to be post #181, but I know that details are not a strong point with you, so I'll let it ride.

 

[Gharib]

You might want to take that back and claim that it already WAS corrupted! You know why? Because we have things like the Dead Sea Scrolls, which contain works mirroring the passages in various Biblical books, and these were written around Jesus’ time or slightly before (or after). And guess what? They’re the same as the modern day versions of the Torah / Tanakh we get nowadays!

That means the version of the Jewish Bible we see on shelves today is the same as that from approximately Jesus’ time (the actual canonical compilation came after Jesus). So that means the supposed corruption must have taken place earlier!

Or, perhaps, just perhaps, the Jews DIDN’T corrupt their teachings and Muhammad only said it so that he could explain away why he didn’t seem to know anything substantial about what Judaism taught?

yeah i know about that, so thats why i asked KAi, about which prophet was he reffering to, Moses (as) or Muhammed (saws) the Torah was not corupted when Moses was receiving it, but it was When Jesus (as) came along. so that was way before Muhammed (saws)

EDIT: Only now have I seen the passage quoted above from the Qur’ân. Literal translations never do justice to ‘Arabic, and some things don’t make sense if you say them literally. Take the first word, for instance (ذَٲلِكَ): it means ‘that’ but in the context of this verse ‘this’ makes for a more appropriate choice to use.

So the ayat above reads:

“That is because allah has revealed (literally ‘descended’, or ‘caused to come down&#8217 the Book in Truth, and those who disagree (or differ) in the Book are a long way off in schism.

so the verse does say that it was changed right? the "dissagree or Differ" part is the one that means they changed the scripture, they dissagreed into accepting Muhammed (saws) and Jesus (as) so they differed. this is correct right?

thanks for translating it, nice to have you around.

 

[Kodanshi]

That’s the usual explanation, but technically the passage doesn’t state that. It talks about people disagreeing or differing in opinions with each other. The word شِقَاق (shiqâq) means literally to cleave, split asunder or diverge. So you could (like I said: technically) have an unchanged Book, but people deriving completely different meanings from them. So you could have a group who give the correct interpretation, and 2 others with the wrong interpretations. The word ‘shiqâq’ only ever refers to those in the wrong. So it is more like talking about sects or splinter groups.

 

[kai]

But didnt Isa confirm the torah in the quran

And when Jesus Mary's son said: "You Israel's sons and daughters, that I am God's messenger to you, confirming to what (is) between my hands from the Torah, and an announcer of good news with a messenger (that) comes from after me, his name (is) Ahmad


so show me in the quran where it says the Torah is corrupted ,

 

[kai]

Response: Yes

could you provide me with a source for you believing this please? because from what i can find the Quran confirms the Torah. I know this is a very widely held belief in the Muslim world but is it Quranic?

 

[McBell]

Response: The qur'an is the true word of Allah and has never been corrupted and the proof of this is in post #183 of page 19 of the thread.

Here is post 183 of this thread:

Response: Exactly how is this propaganda?

​

Now, how exactly is this proof of anything?

 

[McBell]

Response: Let's say that I present to you a basketball and say that the ball can not bounce. You see the basketball and say that it can bounce. So I begin to provide evidence from historians and scholars to prove my stance and likewise you do the same.

So what is the end result? Naturally I will say that your facts are wrong and you can easily say the same to me. So how do we resolve this? Well, what better way to know if the basketball will bounce than to bounce it yourself?!! What better logic of
proof can be better than that?!!

In other words, test the logic. And this simple concept of testing logic is mentioned in the qur'an. In ch: 4:82 of the qur'an we read, "Will they not,then, meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy". Also in ch.2:23 we read "And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah, if you are truthful".

Here we have two tests to prove the authenticity and truth of the qur'an. Once applied, you will come to learn that the qur'an is in fact from Allah and has never nor will it ever be corrupted. That established, we turn to ch.24:55 which says "Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will, surely, make them Successors in the earth, as He made successors (of) those who were before them; and that He will, surely, establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them..." And in ch.17:81 we read "And proclaim 'Truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Verily, falsehood is bound to vanish".

So the qur'an establishes the fact that the false religions will fail in comparison to the truth. So the fact that the collection of Sahih Bukhari and Muslim is established as authentic by the muslim world over other hadiths and biographies shows that these other collections are indeed false.

This is not proof that the "qur'an is the true word of Allah and has never been corrupted" unless you are merely ratifying your beliefs.

Perhaps you did not understand what I said...
Here it is again:

Because you can not prove any of them.
And no, the extensive overuse of the Forer Effect is not even legitimate evidence, let alone proof.
​

Now I know from personal experience that far to many Muslims think that the Forer Effect is sound logical reasoning, but the fact is...IT IS NOT!!

 

[Fatihah]

This is not proof that the "qur'an is the true word of Allah and has never been corrupted" unless you are merely ratifying your beliefs.

Perhaps you did not understand what I said...
Here it is again:

Because you can not prove any of them.
And no, the extensive overuse of the Forer Effect is not even legitimate evidence, let alone proof.
​

Now I know from personal experience that far to many Muslims think that the Forer Effect is sound logical reasoning, but the fact is...IT IS NOT!!

Response: Not proof? How so? Can you produce a chapter like the qur'an's?

 

[Fatihah]

Still flogging that tired horse, I see, Fatihah?

And actually, it was supposed to be post #181, but I know that details are not a strong point with you, so I'll let it ride.

Response: Still in denial, I see. And the post was originally # 183 but after someone deletes a post, the number then changes.

 

[YmirGF]

Response: Still in denial, I see. And the post was originally # 183 but after someone deletes a post, the number then changes.

I see words. Do you have proof? <Grin>

 

[Fatihah]

could you provide me with a source for you believing this please? because from what i can find the Quran confirms the Torah. I know this is a very widely held belief in the Muslim world but is it Quranic?

Response: There is no verse in the qur'an that says this directly. The closest that comes to mind is ch.5:13 of the qur'an. It is from the authentic hadiths that we find that it clearly says that they were corrupted. But despite the fact that there is no clear verse in the qur'an, the simple fact that what is commonly called the torah and gospel of today is contridicting to the qur'an is evidence for the muslims that it has been tampered.

 

[YmirGF]

the simple fact that what is commonly called the torah and gospel of today is contridicting to the qur'an is evidence for the muslims that it has been tampered.

And there's the rub. The Qur'an creates divisions where none, in fact, exist. Any argument that relies on faith is not much of an argument to begin with, although it is a sign of intellectual bankruptcy.

 

[McBell]

Response: Not proof? How so? Can you produce a chapter like the qur'an's?

It is not proof because it is nothing more than wishful thinking on your part.
It is nothing more than a preaching to the choir.

If post #181 is all the "proof" you need, then good for you.
However, it is sorely lacking for anyone not already predisposed towards a like belief.

The truly sad part is that you are unable/unwilling to see past your own beliefs.

 

[Gharib]

And there's the rub. The Qur'an creates divisions where none, in fact, exist. Any argument that relies on faith is not much of an argument to begin with, although it is a sign of intellectual bankruptcy.

tell me YmirGF, what proof or evidence do you have that god doesn't exist?

that too is just a belief, a blind one i should say, and if i'm wrong, please show me the proof that god does infact not exist.

 

[Gharib]

It is not proof because it is nothing more than wishful thinking on your part.
It is nothing more than a preaching to the choir.

If post #181 is all the "proof" you need, then good for you.
However, it is sorely lacking for anyone not already predisposed towards a like belief.

The truly sad part is that you are unable/unwilling to see past your own beliefs.

yes, a common answer by a common non muslim.

isn't there anything else? can't you be more creative than that?

your basis, that islam is not a true religion, is faith and belief also. if not then wheres the proof that islam is a false religion and isn't from god?

do you have any evidence of proof, cos the way i see it you are unable/unwilling to see past your beliefs just like anyother non muslim?

 

[kai]

Response: There is no verse in the qur'an that says this directly. The closest that comes to mind is ch.5:13 of the qur'an. It is from the authentic hadiths that we find that it clearly says that they were corrupted. But despite the fact that there is no clear verse in the qur'an, the simple fact that what is commonly called the torah and gospel of today is contridicting to the qur'an is evidence for the muslims that it has been tampered.

but it could not have been tampered with untill after the quran was revealed can it. but there are examples of Torah older than the Quran that are the same as the ones today ,so what is going on?