Propaganda: Why it is necessary for Islam

[kai]

well the torah included information abot the prophets that were to come after moses.

when Jesus came along, the jews knew he was the prophet from god that the book spoke of, but because he was born without a father, and wasn't a BENI ISRAEEL the jewish scholars changed the verses that spoke of him. so they were waiting on the final prophet that Allah sopke about in the torah (Tewrat).
then when jesus was born Allah revealed the bible (Injeel) seeing that the followers of Moses changed his word, because they thought that Mary commited adultery. so then we had 2 books that were from god, one being true (the bible) and one being altered (the torah). and since the jews didn't accept jesus, they continued with their religion as moses left it, although the cholars knew it was wrong. they probably thought that they will be forgiven about that alteration, since god foragve them for everything that they did, even though they witnessed his power with their own 2 eyes, and a verse in the quran says this about the thinking of those scholars that made the change "the fire will only burn us for a few days or for some particulat days" (note this isn't exact, because i can't find the verse at the moment)

while alive jesus tells his followers (there were 10 of them, i don't know if it was a verse in the bible or not, so i can't be certain) that a prophet will come after me and will speak of me and my mother, he will not speak of himself.

then Muhammed (saws) comes along. the jews knew when he will be born, they knew that something bright will appear in the sky when this last prophet will be born. so when Muhammed (saws) wasa child many jewish scholars would go to visit his gandfather, and they tested Muhammed (saws) to see if he was the prophet. but even though they realised he was the one, they changed the torah again, due to Muhammed (saws) being an arab. Allah (swt) sent the jews prophet after prophet, son after father, but this time it wasn't one of them, this time Muhammed (saws)wasn't sent to just some people, but the whole world, all of humanity. the jews were used to having their own prophet and didn't care about the other people of the time (Allah (swt) says that the jews were elevated amongst other people or tribes of their time, they were given a prophet after a prophet all from the same tribe)

so the jews ended up sticking to the torah, thinking that their punishment for the alteration will only be some days in the fire of hell, and then back to heaven.



no you did, i just pointed it out.



nope you are wong, no verse in the quran says that i am forbiden from believing it, so if you can do that, (produce the chapter) and it is verified by a scholar that it truly is similar in authenticity to those of the quran, then your wish is my comand.



alright then do it, i'm asking you to take the challenge and if the quran isn't the word of Allah just as you say, then this should be a peice of cake.

i don't accept the quran simply because it says so. if it only was that easy. do you eat anything that says FOOD or do you try to analyse it first, you don't eat just about anything with your eyes closed do you?

so i have to produce something that you would consider to be the equal of the Quran, but thats your perameters! you beleive its from God, I dont beleive its from God. I dont even see it as exceptional. If i think a book is exceptional you might think its rubbish.
I am not saying the Quran isnt the word of god i am saying i dont beleive it is because nothing in it is that exceptional to ME.

I can no more prove to you that it isnt from God than you can to me that it is.

I have read it ,i have a copy. I am sorry but it doesnt inspire me like it does you. But thats OK, but to ask me to produce its equal is impossible not because it come from God but because it all depends on who is looking at it me or you.

 

[Gharib]

so i have to produce something that you would consider to be the equal of the Quran, but thats your perameters! you beleive its from God, I dont beleive its from God. I dont even see it as exceptional. If i think a book is exceptional you might think its rubbish.
I am not saying the Quran isnt the word of god i am saying i dont beleive it is because nothing in it is that exceptional to ME.

I can no more prove to you that it isnt from God than you can to me that it is.

I have read it ,i have a copy. I am sorry but it doesnt inspire me like it does you. But thats OK, but to ask me to produce its equal is impossible not because it come from God but because it all depends on who is looking at it me or you.

but thats the problem then, people say it is from Muhammed (saws) and not god, so if it isn't and you are truthful in what you say, take the challenge (i'm not asking you about it, i'm just saying my point), and clearly no non muslim will ever do it.

it doesn't matter if you believe in it or not, i who believe in it can't take the challenge considering that i believe everything in it so i must accept that it is from god.

those who disbelive have a better chance at it, to them it's just another poetry book authored by a illiterate man. so how hard could it really be?

 

[kai]

but thats the problem then, people say it is from Muhammed (saws) and not god, so if it isn't and you are truthful in what you say, take the challenge (i'm not asking you about it, i'm just saying my point), and clearly no non muslim will ever do it.

it doesn't matter if you believe in it or not, i who believe in it can't take the challenge considering that i believe everything in it so i must accept that it is from god.

those who disbelive have a better chance at it, to them it's just another poetry book authored by a illiterate man. so how hard could it really be?

you just cant keep repeating parrot like, "take the challenge","take the challenge", the challenge doesnt exist. its a circular argument, you either beleive its from god or you dont.

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: Again, the answer can be found in post #290 of page 29 of the thread.

Now that the Truth has come to them from Us, they are saying: "Why is he (Muhammad) not given the like of what was given to Musa?" Have they not rejected that which was given to Musa before? They claim: "These (Torah and Qur'an) are the two works of sorcery complementing each other!" And they say: "We believe in neither." Ask them: "Bring a Book from Allah which is a better guide THAN THESE TWO, I will follow it, if what you say be true!" S. 28:48-49 Malik

The challenge has already been met has'nt it except the Quran is like the Torah

 

[ProudMuslim]

We believe miracles were presented throughout history to support prophets/messengers message and those miracles 'catered' to the 'phenomena' of that period and/or region. So Allah (SWT) bestowed Moses (PBUH) the miracles of magic because Pharoahs were boasting about their magic and magicians, Jesus (PBUH) was bestowed with the miracles of 'cure' in a time where diseases were spreading.

The Qur'an is a living miracle to Muslims because of its perfection in literary (a word in a verse might carry two meanings and both will be right in that context) and also because of its obvious scientific revelations or what some call as "vague scientific guesses". But also if you hear it and read it, it has such beautiful rythem, like a poem or a song but better than them because it actually carry substance.

'Take the challenge" verse was primarly referring to the Arab pagans at that time, back then poetry and eloquence were at their peak. Some of the pagans Arabs called Muhammed (PBUH) "a poet, a crazy poet" so Allah (SWT) challenged them to produce a verse like in the Quran, a verse that resembles the Qur'an literary, eloquence and substance. They did try but they failed.

So yes that verse in the Qur'an is a statement of confidence that no one will ever produce a chapter like it, its words contain facts that were not known to humans back then and that is why we call Qur'an our living miracle.

Islam stance on Torah and Gospels is that they are divine books, that they contain God's messages and teachings but they have been subjected to human error/alteration. Therefore they are not infallible.

 

[Fatihah]

Now that the Truth has come to them from Us, they are saying: "Why is he (Muhammad) not given the like of what was given to Musa?" Have they not rejected that which was given to Musa before? They claim: "These (Torah and Qur'an) are the two works of sorcery complementing each other!" And they say: "We believe in neither." Ask them: "Bring a Book from Allah which is a better guide THAN THESE TWO, I will follow it, if what you say be true!" S. 28:48-49 Malik

The challenge has already been met has'nt it except the Quran is like the Torah

Response: Has it? Then where is your chapter like the qur'an's?

 

[Fatihah]

post #290 of page 29 asserts that the quran must come from God because it inspired Mohamed and his followers who conquered Arabia.If thats your yardstick. Then the Torah must be its equal because it inspired the Jews to conquer the land of Canaan.


In fact what does the Quran say of the Torah?

Response: And indeed the torah is true and no muslim denies that but the torah that we know of today has been changed and altered.

 

[Fatihah]

wow you guys are loving this aren't you.

Judgement comes along saying some verses in the quran contradict each other, which even a blind person and a dumb person can see they don't

YmirGF comes along trying to encourage Judgement into more ignorace, thus the 2 are being ingorant in their own little world.

Kodanshi comes along posting stuff about things that have already been done to dissprove islam, just like he proved that Muhammed (saws) was literate.

i'm confused, what do i do next?

England is even more confused than me,

Azakel wants to read arabic but doesn't know how. doesn't even know what the arabic writting looks like.

ProudMuslim is clarifying things to Judgement about missinterpreted verses or scenarios.

Fatiha has got all the answers and yet he is wrong.

wow, where does that leave me?

Response: Just keep doing what you've been doing brother. Indeed you will be rewarded.

 

[Kodanshi]

Is there a way to read a translated version of those passages in English. I can't read Arabic(it is Arabic right?)

The ones at towards the bottom carry a link to translations underneath the Arabic. I’m hoping he’ll do the same with all the new posts, but we’ll have to wait and see!

القرآن ‎

Kur'an or Qur'an sometimes we use different letters when reffering to it in english. so look at the arabic one.

To add to this, the word is transliterated into English as al–Qur’ân, as in The Qur’an. The word looks like this:

قرآن

Basically, read from right to left, it consists of the letters Qaf, Ra, Hamza, Alif and Noon. The Qaf sounds like a K but without aspiration, and made in the back of your throat, almost like a crow cawing. Hence why it is properly spelt in English with a Q to distinguish it from an ordinary K sound.

The Hamza (which you can see as the wavy line over the Alif), represents a glottal stop — the sound you make when you cut off a letter in your throat suddenly. Imagine saying a word like ‘bottle’ in a Cockney accent and breaking it up so you don’t pronounce the ‘T’. Imagine there is a t after the R in Qur’an that you’re not pronouncing, but glottally stopping.

The hamza over the alif also means you pronounce it as a long a sound, like ‘ah’, represented by the a with a ^ over it: â.

So you get Qur’ân as a proper ‘Arabic version of the word in question. And yes, ‘Arabi has no capital letters in it.

 

[Gharib]

you just cant keep repeating parrot like, "take the challenge","take the challenge", the challenge doesnt exist. its a circular argument, you either beleive its from god or you dont.

so the challenge is for those who don't believe, and i will say this, "take the challenge if it isn't from god"

i'm only saying it again just for the fun of it, sorry Kai.

 

[Gharib]

Response: Just keep doing what you've been doing brother. Indeed you will be rewarded.

thanks Fatihah, you are such a patient and tolerant person, how do you do that?

i wish i was like you, inshallah i will some day.

 

[Gharib]

To add to this, the word is transliterated into English as al–Qur’ân, as in The Qur’an. The word looks like this:

قرآن

yes that says Quran. without the vowels on it.

Basically, read from right to left, it consists of the letters Qaf, Ra, Hamza, Alif and Noon. The Qaf sounds like a K but without aspiration, and made in the back of your throat, almost like a crow cawing. Hence why it is properly spelt in English with a Q to distinguish it from an ordinary K sound.

The Hamza (which you can see as the wavy line over the Alif), represents a glottal stop — the sound you make when you cut off a letter in your throat suddenly. Imagine saying a word like ‘bottle’ in a Cockney accent and breaking it up so you don’t pronounce the ‘T’. Imagine there is a t after the R in Qur’an that you’re not pronouncing, but glottally stopping.

The hamza over the alif also means you pronounce it as a long a sound, like ‘ah’, represented by the a with a ^ over it: â.

already learnt all of that stuff, it's good to know them.

So you get Qur’ân as a proper ‘Arabic version of the word in question. And yes, ‘Arabi has no capital letters in it.

told you, they don't have capital letters.

nice to have you on my side for once Kodanshi.

 

[kai]

Response: And indeed the torah is true and no muslim denies that but the torah that we know of today has been changed and altered.

so at the time of the revelation to the prophet it was already corrupted?

 

[Gharib]

so at the time of the revelation to the prophet it was already corrupted?

no it wasn't, didn't i already explain it?

 

[kai]

so the challenge is for those who don't believe, and i will say this, "take the challenge if it isn't from god"

i'm only saying it again just for the fun of it, sorry Kai.

you are funny esalam i will give you that

 

[Gharib]

you are funny esalam i will give you that

nah, not really. thanks though.

 

[kai]

no it wasn't, didn't i already explain it?

but the Quran says its the word of God, and its true, doesnt it? so it must have been the true Torah at the time of the Prophet no?

 

[Gharib]

but the Quran says its the word of God, and its true, doesnt it?

are we speaking of the quran or the torah here

so it must have been the true Torah at the time of the Prophet no?

yes and many years after it, untill maybe jesus came along.

 

[McBell]

you just cant keep repeating parrot like, "take the challenge","take the challenge", the challenge doesnt exist. its a circular argument, you either beleive its from god or you dont.

That is because he thinks the challenge is unbeatable.

However, the fact is that it is a Kent Hovind Challenge.
No matter what is brought, it will be shot down.
Regardless of how well it does or does not succeed in winning the challenge.


Now for me, the question is: Does he honestly think the challenge is a legit challenge that someone can honestly win, or is he, like Kent Hovind, merely using this ruse of a challenge to hold onto his beliefs?

 

[kai]

are we speaking of the quran or the torah here

Torah



yes and many years after it, untill maybe jesus came along.

Jesus came before Mohamed ? either the Torah was corrupted before the revelation to Mohamed or after? but it cant be before because the Quran says its true. and i am sure there are copies of the Torah that are very old 2nd century before Jesus?