Propaganda: Why it is necessary for Islam

[Fatihah]

I do not see clear evidence Fatihah. What I do see is mind control.

You must believe everything Allah and his messengers tell you. Those who don't are disbelievers and will face a painful doom. 4:150-151

Response: Your inability to see is no fault of mine.

 

[kai]

Response: Quite possibly, someone will believe it. To be honest with you, I personally would not. In all actuality, I would be in the same position you are in and I would request for clear proof that the qur'an is in fact from Allah and that Muhammad is a true prophet. For Muhammad to simply say that he is would not be enough and I would definately not believe him or follow him.

So the question would be, what kind of evidence would prove his prophethood? A miracle of course! If I watched Muhammad perform something miraculously and achieve things that are not humanly possible, that would be clear evidence that he is indeed a prophet who is truly guided by a divine power and by you accepting the challenge, you yourself will be able to see the miracle of the qur'an which is explained in post # 290 of page 29 of thread but you refuse to do so and wish to stay in denial.

post #290 of page 29 asserts that the quran must come from God because it inspired Mohamed and his followers who conquered Arabia.If thats your yardstick. Then the Torah must be its equal because it inspired the Jews to conquer the land of Canaan.


In fact what does the Quran say of the Torah?

 

[Gharib]

post #290 of page 29 asserts that the quran must come from God because it inspired Mohamed and his followers who conquered Arabia.If thats your yardstick. Then the Torah must be its equal because it inspired the Jews to conquer the land of Canaan.

who said that we don't believe in moses as a prophet from god?

 

[kai]

who said that we don't believe in moses as a prophet from god?

no one! i asked what does the Quran say of the Torah?

 

[kai]

There is a very real circularity for this challenge. IT goes like this: If you're a Muslim, you believe that the entire Quran is the very word of God, and is therefore inerrant. A Muslim will also believe that there is no other writing as eloquent as the Quran. Therefore, any attempt to "produce a Sura like thereunto" must fail - thus verifying that the Quran is the word of God and inerrant. In fact, the verse following the challenge affirms this and threatens disbelievers with the Fire whose fuel is men and stones:

But if ye cannot - and of a surety ye cannot - then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith. -- Qur'an 2.24 (trans. A. Yusuf Ali)
​

so its no surprise that Muslims have found nothing equal to the Qur'an. The surprise would be if they had, since even admitting the possibility of an equal or better Sura contradicts 2:24, which says "of a surety ye cannot," which would be a sign a sign of disbelief.


i agree only a genious would weave this kind of cicularity through the entire source of reference.

 

[Gharib]

no one! i asked what does the Quran say of the Torah?

well it says it is from Allah, so is the bible.

 

[kai]

well it says it is from Allah, so is the bible.

so the Quran teaches that these scriptures are genuinely the Word of God ?

 

[Gharib]

There is a subtle but very real circularity for this challenge. IT goes like this: If you're a Muslim, you believe that the entire Quran is the very word of God, and is therefore inerrant. A Muslim will also believe that there is no other writing as eloquent as the Quran.

bible and torah are, but since they got altered we do not know wich is man added information and which isn't, so we don't rely on them nor do we consider the PRESENT torah and bible to be authentic. maybe for some parts which i doubt any muslim would be able to know.

Therefore, any attempt to "produce a Sura like thereunto" must fail - thus verifying that the Quran is the word of God and inerrant. In fact, the verse following the challenge affirms this and threatens disbelievers with the Fire whose fuel is men and stones:

But if ye cannot - and of a surety ye cannot - then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith. -- Qur'an 2.24 (trans. A. Yusuf Ali)
​

so whats wrong about that. non muslims don't believe in islam nor what the quran says, so how did the words of Muhammed (saws) scare you people (i've said words of Muhammed (saws) just to prove my point that it isn't from Muhammed (saws) but from Allah (swt), men can't produce anything like it)
that just proves the quran right i guess.

so its no surprise that Muslims have found nothing equal to the Qur'an.

so what about the non muslims, you guys are the free thinkers, you should be able to comprehend that challenge, shouldn't you?

The surprise would be if they had, since even admitting the possibility of an equal or better Sura contradicts 2:24, which says "of a surety ye cannot," which would be a sign a sign of disbelief.

no the don;t contradict each other, Allah (swt) is making the challenge beause people think that Muhammed (saws) is the author of the quran, so he is challenging people to make such a chapter as those of the quran, if one man did it, surely others can. and by saying "of a surety ye cannot" Allah (swt) is saying that it will not be possible for them to do it, since the quran isn't man made, thus no one can copete with god.

is any of that difficult to understand?


i agree only a genious would weave this kind of cicularity through the entire source of reference.[/quote]

 

[Gharib]

so the Quran teaches that these scriptures are genuinely the Word of God ?

Allah speaks of them in the quran, we are obligated to accept them just as we accept the quran, but the PRESENT bible and torah are not authentic, they have been biased.

 

[McBell]

So, out of curiosity, how is the name of the Muslim Holy Book spelled?

 

[kai]

bible and torah are, but since they got altered we do not know wich is man added information and which isn't, so we don't rely on them nor do we consider the PRESENT torah and bible to be authentic. maybe for some parts which i doubt any muslim would be able to know.
So tell me what it says in the quran about this alteration? it couldnt have been altered at the time of the prophet because the Quran itself is telling you that it is the word of God.


so whats wrong about that. non muslims don't believe in islam nor what the quran says, so how did the words of Muhammed (saws) scare you people (i've said words of Muhammed (saws) just to prove my point that it isn't from Muhammed (saws) but from Allah (swt), men can't produce anything like it)
that just proves the quran right i guess.
you are proving it to yourself , when there is no need, you already beleive.


so what about the non muslims, you guys are the free thinkers, you should be able to comprehend that challenge, shouldn't you?
But i have to write something you would believe to prove it, and that would make you an unbeliever, so you are forbidden to believe it , so round and round we go


no the don;t contradict each other, Allah (swt) is making the challenge beause people think that Muhammed (saws) is the author of the quran, so he is challenging people to make such a chapter as those of the quran, if one man did it, surely others can. and by saying "of a surety ye cannot" Allah (swt) is saying that it will not be possible for them to do it, since the quran isn't man made, thus no one can copete with god.

is any of that difficult to understand?
No the Quran tells you its made from God and you believe it, you also believe no one can compete with that God so therefore the challenge cant be done if you stick to the rules can it?

i agree only a genious would weave this kind of cicularity through the entire source of reference.

[/quote]


Indeed

 

[Gharib]

So, out of curiosity, how is the name of the Muslim Holy Book spelled?

القرآن ‎

Kur'an or Qur'an sometimes we use different letters when reffering to it in english. so look at the arabic one.

 

[McBell]

القرآن ‎

Kur'an or Qur'an sometimes we use different letters when reffering to it in english. so look at the arabic one.

So why is it that you do not capitalize and apostrophize it when you use the word?

 

[kai]

Allah speaks of them in the quran, we are obligated to accept them just as we accept the quran, but the PRESENT bible and torah are not authentic, they have been biased.

but isnt it the same Torah now that it was at the time of the prophet?

 

[Gharib]

So tell me what it says in the quran about this alteration? it couldnt have been altered at the time of the prophet because the Quran itself is telling you that it is the word of God.

well the torah included information abot the prophets that were to come after moses.

when Jesus came along, the jews knew he was the prophet from god that the book spoke of, but because he was born without a father, and wasn't a BENI ISRAEEL the jewish scholars changed the verses that spoke of him. so they were waiting on the final prophet that Allah sopke about in the torah (Tewrat).
then when jesus was born Allah revealed the bible (Injeel) seeing that the followers of Moses changed his word, because they thought that Mary commited adultery. so then we had 2 books that were from god, one being true (the bible) and one being altered (the torah). and since the jews didn't accept jesus, they continued with their religion as moses left it, although the cholars knew it was wrong. they probably thought that they will be forgiven about that alteration, since god foragve them for everything that they did, even though they witnessed his power with their own 2 eyes, and a verse in the quran says this about the thinking of those scholars that made the change "the fire will only burn us for a few days or for some particulat days" (note this isn't exact, because i can't find the verse at the moment)

while alive jesus tells his followers (there were 10 of them, i don't know if it was a verse in the bible or not, so i can't be certain) that a prophet will come after me and will speak of me and my mother, he will not speak of himself.

then Muhammed (saws) comes along. the jews knew when he will be born, they knew that something bright will appear in the sky when this last prophet will be born. so when Muhammed (saws) wasa child many jewish scholars would go to visit his gandfather, and they tested Muhammed (saws) to see if he was the prophet. but even though they realised he was the one, they changed the torah again, due to Muhammed (saws) being an arab. Allah (swt) sent the jews prophet after prophet, son after father, but this time it wasn't one of them, this time Muhammed (saws)wasn't sent to just some people, but the whole world, all of humanity. the jews were used to having their own prophet and didn't care about the other people of the time (Allah (swt) says that the jews were elevated amongst other people or tribes of their time, they were given a prophet after a prophet all from the same tribe)

so the jews ended up sticking to the torah, thinking that their punishment for the alteration will only be some days in the fire of hell, and then back to heaven.

you are proving it to yourself

no you did, i just pointed it out.

But i have to write something you would believe to prove it, and that would make you an unbeliever, so you are forbidden to believe it , so round and round we go

nope you are wong, no verse in the quran says that i am forbiden from believing it, so if you can do that, (produce the chapter) and it is verified by a scholar that it truly is similar in authenticity to those of the quran, then your wish is my comand.

No the Quran tells you its made from God and you believe it, you also believe no one can compete with that God so therefore the challenge cant be done if you stick to the rules can it.

alright then do it, i'm asking you to take the challenge and if the quran isn't the word of Allah just as you say, then this should be a peice of cake.

i don't accept the quran simply because it says so. if it only was that easy. do you eat anything that says FOOD or do you try to analyse it first, you don't eat just about anything with your eyes closed do you?

 

[Gharib]

So why is it that you do not capitalize and apostrophize it when you use the word?

well in that case, i'll write it in arabic, so i don't have to capitalise it or apostrophize it, there are no capital letters in arabic. i think.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

yep theres a better answer YmirGF, ignore mine.

I think yours was an excellent answer.

 

[Gharib]

but isnt it the same Torah now that it was at the time of the prophet?

no it's been changed. man made info has been added.

 

[Gharib]

I think yours was an excellent answer.

:no: :slap::sad4:

 

[Gharib]

I think yours was an excellent answer.

my answer was about how Muhammed (saws) was and what the message of islam did, it wasn't really an answer, i just used the scenario of how Muhammed (saws) was when he got chosen as a prophet, i din't give it much thought.