Propaganda: Why it is necessary for Islam

[Gharib]

But that's just it, Kai. The whole idea is - quite literally -- a bloody joke.
Fatihah's answers to my points are evidence that some Muslims are not particularly serious about having rational discussions.

and which discussions are rational to you exactly, whats the criteria for a rational discussion?

 

[kai]

and which discussions are rational to you exactly, whats the criteria for a rational discussion?

discussion without absolutism, with the ability to look at the subject from other sides.

Ibn al-Haytham

Therefore, the seeker after the truth is not one who studies the writings of the ancients and, following his natural disposition, puts his trust in them, but rather the one who suspects his faith in them and questions what he gathers from them, the one who submits to argument and demonstration, and not to the sayings of a human being whose nature is fraught with all kinds of imperfection and deficiency. Thus the duty of the man who investigates the writings of scientists, if learning the truth is his goal, is to make himself an enemy of all that he reads, and, applying his mind to the core and margins of its content, attack it from every side. He should also suspect himself as he performs his critical examination of it, so that he may avoid falling into either prejudice or leniency

Alhazen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Gharib]

discussion without absolutism, with the ability to look at the subject from other sides.

Ibn al-Haytham

Therefore, the seeker after the truth is not one who studies the writings of the ancients and, following his natural disposition, puts his trust in them, but rather the one who suspects his faith in them and questions what he gathers from them, the one who submits to argument and demonstration, and not to the sayings of a human being whose nature is fraught with all kinds of imperfection and deficiency. Thus the duty of the man who investigates the writings of scientists, if learning the truth is his goal, is to make himself an enemy of all that he reads, and, applying his mind to the core and margins of its content, attack it from every side. He should also suspect himself as he performs his critical examination of it, so that he may avoid falling into either prejudice or leniency

Alhazen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

so whats the problem then?

sometimes the muslims wont accept anything from you and vise versa. thats natural. it does happen.

so to what discussions do you want me to keep an open mind about. anything in particular?

 

[ProudMuslim]

It's already been done,the books of the Bible,oh hang on were'nt they written first

You really need to speak Arabic to know the Qur'an is nothing like the Bibel. Absolutely nothing.

And if i am not mistaken, the Bible itself does not claim it is from God? What i mean is that the content is not limited to God's direct words.

 

[Fatihah]

I dont really get the question ,Can you produce a chapter like the Quran? what on earth does that mean? a chapter like what exactly? What will be the criteria to judge ? Who are going to be the judges? Muslims? you cannot! you are prevented from doing so , you are only allowed one judgement and thats the negative.

But if ye cannot - and of a surety ye cannot - then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith. -- Qur'an 2.24 (trans. A. Yusuf Ali


i can only answer such a silly question by asking you ,Can you produce another Hamlet?

Response: For a more detailed explaination, refer to post #290 of page 29 of the thread.

 

[Fatihah]

But that's just it, Kai. The whole idea is - quite literally -- a bloody joke.
Fatihah's answers to my points are evidence that some Muslims are not particularly serious about having rational discussions.

Response: This is a common response from people who are in denial and lack the humility to acknowledge the simple fact that you have clear evidence to show that the qur'an is from Allah. So in an effort to get your point to stand out and seem logical, you begin to state how the challenge is not rational with absolutely no logical reasoning behind such a claim. It's an amazing thing to sit back and watch. You claim the qur'an is man made and yet when I ask of you, a man, to produce a chapter like the qur'an to prove your case, you do everything but that and to make matters worse, you call such logic to be irrational!

A blind man can see who's being irrational. But you've filled yourself with so much pride in your own logic that you don't even realize that calling something that is clearly logical to be irrational is making you sound absurd, not me.

 

[kai]

Response: It is a common response that everytime this challenge is stated, someone responds with something like, "can you produce something like Shakespere or a symphony like Beethoven? If not, does this mean that they are prophets of God?"

So before the thread is filled with those type of responses, let me explain further. The challenge is to produce a chapter "like" the qur'an. Therefore, it does not mean to simply write something in arabic and think you've accomplished something. What is the qur'an? Well what is any religous scripture? It is supposed to be inspiration from God. It's purpose is to inspire people to follow its teachings. So to produce a chapter like the qur'an means to produce a chapter as inspirational and as successful as the qur'an.

So what's the purpose of that? Well by doing so, you learn the miracle of the qur'an. And what is that miracle? The miracle is the following:
It is impossible for a person/s to create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation.

This is the miracle of the qur'an. This is the miracle of Muhammad. This is a challenge for those who claim that the religion of islam is man made. Muhammad used a religion to inspired enough followers to conquer a nation. So to those who claim that this was the act of a man made religion, then why don't you do the same? Why don't you create your own religion and see how far you get? And when you do, you will fail. Not only will you will fail, you will fail miserably. Muhammad conquered Arabia. I guarantee you, you won't even be able to conquer your own neighborhood. And once you fail, you will be forced to ask yourself the question "why was it possible for Muhammad but impossible for me and anyone else?" That is when you will come to realize that it was the help of Allah that made it possible for Muhammad. Without Allah, even Muhammad would have failed. You disagree, the 1400+ year challenge still stands.

Oh i see! so force of arms is proof of the religion of peace, well protestant Englands vast territorial gains under the KIngs and Queens who, are after all defenders of the faith ,must mean that protestantism is the true religion.
but wait no! how about the Holy roman Empire? or the Imperial Japanese Empire? oh now i am confused

 

[YmirGF]

Response: This is a common response from people who are in denial and lack the humility to acknowledge the simple fact that you have clear evidence to show that the qur'an is from Allah. So in an effort to get your point to stand out and seem logical, you begin to state how the challenge is not rational with absolutely no logical reasoning behind such a claim. It's an amazing thing to sit back and watch. You claim the qur'an is man made and yet when I ask of you, a man, to produce a chapter like the qur'an to prove your case, you do everything but that and to make matters worse, you call such logic to be irrational!

A blind man can see who's being irrational. But you've filled yourself with so much pride in your own logic that you don't even realize that calling something that is clearly logical to be irrational is making you sound absurd, not me.

Clearly, Fatihah, we have different ideas of what constitutes logic, rational thought, humilty and evidence. I think this is very instructive to anyone reading our interactions.

In light of this, I want to give you and all Muslims a differnt kind of test. Here is the test.

Suppose the Qur'an, as it is, did not exist. Suppose that Muhammad existed right now in our world and his so-called "revelations" began at this very moment. Do you think that many would actually believe his words or do you think that most people would consider him to be mentally unsound? If you can think of any other alternative perception, I'd love to hear it.

 

[Judgment]

Response: This is a common response from people who are in denial and lack the humility to acknowledge the simple fact that you have clear evidence to show that the qur'an is from Allah. So in an effort to get your point to stand out and seem logical, you begin to state how the challenge is not rational with absolutely no logical reasoning behind such a claim. It's an amazing thing to sit back and watch. You claim the qur'an is man made and yet when I ask of you, a man, to produce a chapter like the qur'an to prove your case, you do everything but that and to make matters worse, you call such logic to be irrational!

A blind man can see who's being irrational. But you've filled yourself with so much pride in your own logic that you don't even realize that calling something that is clearly logical to be irrational is making you sound absurd, not me.

I do not see clear evidence Fatihah. What I do see is mind control.

You must believe everything Allah and his messengers tell you. Those who don't are disbelievers and will face a painful doom. 4:150-151

 

[YmirGF]

I do not see clear evidence Fatihah. What I do see is mind control.

You must believe everything Allah and his messengers tell you. Those who don't are disbelievers and will face a painful doom. 4:150-151

It is the Word of God BECAUSE it can only be the word of God. No human animal could write such genius, so the book proves the existence of the author. So simple.
(One does have to wonder why there was a need to introduce the concept of abrogation though. I am still trying to fathom the reasoning behind needing to change something that is perfect; as doing so tends to diminish the idea of that it was perfect to begin with.) Surely an entity worthy of being called God would understand that.

Then of course, there were those naughty "Satanic verses". That makes one ponder what Muhammad may well have missed. Ah... the logical contradictions...

 

[Gharib]

It is the Word of God BECAUSE it can only be the word of God. No human animal could write such genius, so the book proves the existence of the author. So simple.
(One does have to wonder why there was a need to introduce the concept of aborogation though. I am still trying to fathom the reasoning behind needing to change something that is perfect, as doing so tends to deminish the idea of that it was perfect to begin with.) Surely an entity worthy of being called God would understand that.

Then of course, there were those naughty "Satanic verses". That makes one ponder what Muhammad may well have missed. Ah... the logical contradicitons...

yes it can be ONLY the word of god. you have been challenged with the chapter thing haven't you? well heres your chance to prove to me that god doesn't exist. if you can prove that, hell i'll do as you say or believe in what ever you believe, which i believe is nothing wright?

 

[Judgment]

It is the Word of God BECAUSE it can only be the word of God. No human animal could write such genius, so the book proves the existence of the author. So simple.
(One does have to wonder why there was a need to introduce the concept of aborogation though. I am still trying to fathom the reasoning behind needing to change something that is perfect, as doing so tends to deminish the idea of that it was perfect to begin with.) Surely an entity worthy of being called God would understand that.

Then of course, there were those naughty "Satanic verses". That makes one ponder what Muhammad may well have missed. Ah... the logical contradicitons...

Strange that God would need to say such a thing. Followers must believe 'everything' - or else! The mind is taught to accept out of fear. Fear to even question one word.

I agree concerning abrogation. There should be no contradicting verses within a claimed perfection.

 

[Gharib]

Strange that God would need to say such a thing. Followers must believe 'everything' - or else! The mind is taught to accept out of fear. Fear to even question one word.

I agree concerning abrogation. There should be no contradicting verses within a claimed perfection.

can you plz show me the contradicting verses. if you are truthfull in what you are saying. you must know them if you are speaking about them.

 

[Judgment]

can you plz show me the contradicting verses. if you are truthfull in what you are saying. you must know them if you are speaking about them.

Is 'all' obedient to Allah ?

30:26
Unto Him belongeth whosoever is in the heavens and the earth. All are obedient unto Him.

2:34
We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.

Forgiveness ?

39:153
Say: O My slaves who have been prodigal to their own hurt! Despair not of the mercy of Allah, Who forgiveth all sins. Lo! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.

4:168
Those who disbelieve and deal in wrong, Allah will never forgive them.

9:80
Ask forgiveness for them (O Muhammad), or ask not forgiveness for them; though thou ask forgiveness for them seventy times Allah will not forgive them. That is because they disbelieved in Allah and His messenger.



To God - a Son ?

39:4
If Allah had willed to choose a son, He could have chosen what He would of that which He hath created.

6:100-1Yet they ... impute falsely, without knowledge, sons and daughters unto Him. ... The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child?


Link for Naskh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(exegesis)

 

[YmirGF]

because they disbelieved in Allah and His messenger.

Personally, I have always loved this type of built in appeal to authority in the Qur'an. It says an awful lot about the writer to insinuate himself into authority, second only, to his alleged god. The “beauty” of it is that all Muhammad had to do was offer the Qur’an as his divine authority... the book HE was writing. His own words are his proof because his words say so. It is several orders above devious thinking. The ONLY way it all works is IF Allah is indeed the writer of the book. It’s an all or nothing bluff that evidently fools many.

 

[Judgment]

Personally, I have always loved this type of built in appeal to authority in the Qur'an. It says an awful lot about the writer to insinuate himself into authority, second only, to his alleged god. The “beauty” of it is that all Muhammad had to do was offer the Qur’an as his divine authority... the book HE was writing. His own words are his proof because his words say so. It is several orders above devious thinking. The ONLY way it all works is IF Allah is indeed the writer of the book. It’s an all or nothing bluff that evidently fools many.

It appears the clever Aisha may have seen through this. Upon being caught cheating on his wives with a maid named Mariyah. Mohammed got word from Allah in the form of the following verses.

Surah: At-Tahrim: 1-5
1. O Prophet! Why do you ban (for yourself) that which Allâh has made lawful to you, seeking to please your wives? And Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

2. Allâh has already ordained for you (O men), the dissolution of your oaths. And Allâh is your Maula (Lord, or Master, or Protector, etc.) and He is the All-Knower, the All-Wise.

3. And (remember) when the Prophet (SAW) disclosed a matter in confidence to one of his wives (Hafsah), so when she told it (to another i.e. 'Aishah), and Allâh made it known to him, he informed part thereof and left a part. Then when he told her (Hafsah) thereof, she said: "Who told you this?" He said: "The All-Knower, the All-Aware (Allâh) has told me".

4. If you two (wives of the Prophet SAW, namely 'Aishah and Hafsah) turn in repentance to Allâh, (it will be better for you), your hearts are indeed so inclined (to oppose what the Prophet SAW likes), but if you help one another against him (Muhammad SAW), then verily, Allâh is his Maula (Lord, or Master, or Protector, etc.), and Jibrael (Gabriel), and the righteous among the believers, and furthermore, the angels are his helpers.

5. It may be if he divorced you (all) that his Lord will give him instead of you, wives better than you, Muslims (who submit to Allâh), believers, obedient to Allâh, turning to Allâh in repentance, worshipping Allâh sincerely, fasting or emigrants (for Allâh's sake), previously married and virgins. "

Hearing the verses - Aisha said : "Your God indeed rushes in coming to your aid!"

 

[Alla Prima]

Strange that God would need to say such a thing. Followers must believe 'everything' - or else! The mind is taught to accept out of fear. Fear to even question one word.

Believe or else comes from a man who desires control of others.

I agree concerning abrogation. There should be no contradicting verses within a claimed perfection.

Agree as well. It's like an "ooops". An omnipotent being doesn't do ooopses.

 

[Alla Prima]

interesting article from Bill Warner:

The most unique aspect of Islamic doctrine is dualism. The Koran, Sira (Mohammed's biography) and Hadith (his traditions) hold contradictory positions on many points of doctrine that confuse kafirs. Much ink is wasted on questioning which side of the contradiction is right and which is wrong. However, Islamic dualism allows both sides of a contradiction to be true at the same time. The only way to determine truth in any multi-state system is to use statistics. Here in a Frontpage Magazine interview FrontPage Magazine , a colleague of mine, Moorthy Muthuswamy, shows how simple statistical reasoning allows us to see the total truth of Islam.

Political Islam // Articles // Statistical Islam

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: You have beautifully unanswered the question.

How can you unanswer a question?:areyoucra

 

[England my lionheart]

You really need to speak Arabic to know the Qur'an is nothing like the Bibel. Absolutely nothing.

And if i am not mistaken, the Bible itself does not claim it is from God? What i mean is that the content is not limited to God's direct words.

There are simmilarities in the content,for example loot