Prophet Muhammad did not marry a child

[firedragon]

You're flailing. "Despaired" is used in describing post-menopausal women. It's the next statement that deals with children.

(Shakir) - And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses.




Nope. Nobody used those words, and nobody here has claimed they do.

Fraud.
It says "and of those too who have not had their courses". And that's after divorce. And they are as you yourself said "women".

Not "prepubescent babies".

**mod edit**

 

[KWED]

Prophet Muhammad was a prophet of God. The angel Gabriel told prophet Muhammad the Quran.
A prophet is a person who follow God. And because the Quran is from God, then he followed the Quran

How do you now Muhammad was a prophet of god and spoke to an angel?
Correct - because Muhammad told you.
So, how do you know Muhammad was telling the truth? How do you know we was not mistaken, or deluded, or dishonest?
After all, we have hard evidence that people do all those things, but we only have Muhammad's word for the god and angel stuff, and even you must admit that you know people can be mistaken or dishonest about talking to god.

If you hadn't been raised as a Muslim, do you think you would believe what Muhammad said?

 

[KWED]

So Daniel. You believe in the reliability of the history of the prophet Muhammed right? Trying not to get into your Muhammed bashing derail, can you show me in Muhammed biography, how his marriage to Aisha clashes with Aisha's premarital marriage proposal by someone else, and how Asma gets into the picture conflicting Aisha's age, and if Aisha was a miraculous little baby of 2 or 3 to memorise parts of the revelation through her parents?

Just asking since you say it's reliable which means you should have had some knowledge on the seerah.

Thanks.

With all due respect, you should Google the difference between "reliable" and "unreliable".
Just saying.

 

[KWED]

I wish I can give you a thousand stars, no a million, for having the courage to stand up for the truth. She was about 19 at the time. What you say about the Quran is true that it is the only real authority in Islam.

19!!
Even the most revisionist, modernist Muslim apologists only get as far as 15 or 16.

Your approach reflects the approach so common amongst apologists; to reject authoritative sources as unreliable or flawed in some way if they conflict with your agenda, until you find one source that appears to support your position, and then suddenly you cannot question authority. Except all the authorities that still contradict you. Then authority is still unreliable.
And here, that source seems to be some random person on an internet forum!

 

[firedragon]

2. Women who are past child-bearing age.

Question was

• What do you call a young girl of prepubescent age in arabic?

Since you are ignorant, you made some nonsense up and gave an English, bogus definition.

Try to read the English question and answer again since you are a pretend scholar.

3. Females who have not yet reached child-bearing age (There's a name for such people. They're called children).

The question was

• How does the Qur'an define marital age in chapter two?

Your answer is bogus, because you are ignorant. But you have to pretend like babies play pretend kitchens and pretend to cook and make tea.

Read the question again, and try to answer. Let your so called "Folks" see how ignorant you are.

Ask. You can get the answers.

1. Women of child-bearing age.

The question was

• Steve. Do you know what "Annisa" means? Is it female or women? How do you define a woman?

So if according to your own answer, it is "women of child-bearing age" how could you insist so passionately that they are "babies of prepubescent age"? Do you see your own contradiction?

Study a bit. You won't lose anything. You will only gain in life.

 

[KWED]

Some people begun to fabricate false hadiths. People fabricated false hadiths because they was enemies of islam. They wanted to attack prophet Muhammad.

Evidence? Sources? Examples?
Nope, thought not.

And most likely the hadiths about Aisha's age when prophet Muhammad married her is false and fabricated.

Why? Do you have some Islamic, scriptural problem with it (one that dozens of scholars over the centuries have missed)? Or ar you just uncomfortable with the idea?
How about Muhammad torturing people to death or executing prisoners or keeping and trading slaves? Are all those hadith fabricated by his enemies as well?

And why weren't the great hadith scholars like Bukhari and Muslim and Dawud aware of all these fabricated hadith being inserted into the canon, complete with verifiable lines of transmission?

Fabfricated hadiths is not a new problem, most muslims believe there exist hadiths that is false,weak and lies.

Yes, and they are rated as mawdu or daif. The ones relating to Aisha's age are sahih.
(It might be worth reading up on "hadith science" before engaging in debate on the nature of hadith).

 

[KWED]

I would offer most Baha'i would also know and accept Muhammad did not break God's Law.

Regards Tony

Where in the Quran does it say that Muslim men cannot marry girls who are 9 years old or similar?
(Hint: it doesn't)

 

[KWED]

I will answer for myself. No

Abdul'baha offered in part this.

"Now we come to Muḥammad. Americans and Europeans have heard a number of stories about the Prophet which they have thought to be true, although the narrators were either ignorant or antagonistic: most of them were clergy; others were ignorant Muslims who repeated unfounded traditions about Muḥammad which they ignorantly believed to be to His praise.
Thus some benighted Muslims made His polygamy the pivot of their praises and held it to be a wonder, regarding it as a miracle; and European historians, for the most part, rely on the tales of these ignorant people......"

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 18-24

Regards Tony

Bahaullah seemed to have a very weak grasp of Islamic scripture. The "stories" of Aisha being 6 at marriage and 9 at sex come from authentic, authoritative Islamic texts. No Muslim scholars have questioned the narrative until recently, when sceptics began to highlight it as a moral failing.
Did Bahaullah really call some of Islam's most revered and renowned scholars "ignorant or antagonistic"?

 

[KWED]

I think you’ll find that “once they start their courses” children were fair game,not just in Islam either,child marriage was common in Europe too,that was life in the medaeval world of Muhammed and girls can start their periods as young as 8years old.

As I said,this was common in that time but it made a precedent that was carried on into the modern era,thankfully Saudi Arabia have now banned marriage of anyone under 18 so at least there’s some progress there.

Actually, child marriage was not common in medieval times. For example, in 14th & 15th century England, the average marriage age for women was between 18-22.
The age of consent for sex was set by law at 12 in 1275.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Even the Quran warns of hadiths.

31:6

But there are, among men, those who purchase idle Hadiths, without knowledge (or meaning), to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah and throw ridicule (on the Path): for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty.

What about the Quran?

Transliteration 39:23

al-lahu nazzala aḥsana l-ḥadīthi kitāban mutashābihan mathāniya taqshaʿirru min'hu julūdu alladhīna yakhshawna rabbahum thumma talīnu julūduhum waqulūbuhum ilā dhik'ri l-lahi dhālika hudā l-lahi yahdī bihi man yashāu waman yuḍ'lili l-lahu famā lahu min hādi


God has revealed the best hadith, a book consistent with itself, repeating. The skin of those who fear their Lord shivers from it. Then their skin and their hearts soften to the celebration of God's praises. Such is the guidance of God. He guides with it whom He pleases, but those who God leaves to stray, can have none to guide

The ONLY authority in Islam is the Word of God, the Quran. Any Hadith or statement that contradicts the Quran is false and untrue.

What does the Quran say about Prophet Muhammad?


33.021 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

So when you read fabricated hadiths of pedophilia and that Muhammad beheaded 100 Jews, they are just that, malicious slander to defame Him. Nothing new as far as Proohets of God goes. All the Prophets have been subject to malicious hatred and even killed.

 

[KWED]

Ah. Another "Bash Muhammed" person with TV knowledge.

The understanding that Muhammad was a brutal warlord with an expansionist agenda, as well as a spiritual leader comes from the Quran and hadith, not TV.
Also, you are committing the "genetic fallacy". There is a ton of information on the TV that is well researched and factually accurate. Some of it about Islam.

Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17)

Kill Homosexuals
“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abomile deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13)

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15)

Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10)

Death for Fornication

A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 )

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 )

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 )

Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 )

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 )

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 )

Ah, whataboutery. The last resort of a failed argument.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Bahaullah seemed to have a very weak grasp of Islamic scripture. The "stories" of Aisha being 6 at marriage and 9 at sex come from authentic, authoritative Islamic texts. No Muslim scholars have questioned the narrative until recently, when sceptics began to highlight it as a moral failing.
Did Bahaullah really call some of Islam's most revered and renowned scholars "ignorant or antagonistic"?

The Quran does not state Aisha’s age and the ONLY authoritative scripture in Islam is the Holy Quran which is believed to be the Word of God. You are quoting hadiths not authentic authoritative Islamic texts of which only the Quran can claim to occupy that exalted station not hadiths.

Any hadith which the Quran does not support is considered false, inaccurate, incorrect or fabricated. The official position in Islam is that the Quran is the sole authority not hadiths or opinions. And in Authoritative Islamic scripture, the Quran we read:

33:21

33.021 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

 

[loverofhumanity]

19!!
Even the most revisionist, modernist Muslim apologists only get as far as 15 or 16.

Your approach reflects the approach so common amongst apologists; to reject authoritative sources as unreliable or flawed in some way if they conflict with your agenda, until you find one source that appears to support your position, and then suddenly you cannot question authority. Except all the authorities that still contradict you. Then authority is still unreliable.
And here, that source seems to be some random person on an internet forum!

The only authoritative scripture in Islam is the Quran. All else is here say and stories which cannot be proven. Opinion is not evidence neither are hadiths.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If only I could and not just in Islam,I’m so not an expert but just an observer.

AFAIK there is no age given in the Quran so it’s left to scholars like those in Pakistan ,guess what the government tried to up the age of marriage to 17/18 but the council for Islamic ideology stopped it by calling it “unislamic” and “blasphemous” and say this:


Clerics on the council object to minimum age requirements, arguing instead that an individual can marry once reaching puberty, which can be as early as the age of 9.

I wonder where the age of 9 comes from?,now not everyone in Islam would agree that the hadith about Aishas marriage is true but for 100s of years many take that a precedent for child marriage.

It’s a lot like the church and the sacraments. They created rituals that Christ never formulated yet billions follow them. Doesn’t mean they are truth. For over a thousand years Christians will literally eat bread believing Christ is entering their body. I believed it when I was a child but I know it’s just superstition. People still practising today doesn’t mean it’s true or came from God’s Book.

 

[danieldemol]

What are your arguments for and against?

They are not my arguments, the arguments against are yours and the arguments for are Shakeel's.

I am just an observer to the arguments.

Unfortunately it looks as though Shakeel is not going to participate, so people will only hear the against side and be left to make up their minds based on half the information.

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

Bahaullah seemed to have a very weak grasp of Islamic scripture. The "stories" of Aisha being 6 at marriage and 9 at sex come from authentic, authoritative Islamic texts. No Muslim scholars have questioned the narrative until recently, when sceptics began to highlight it as a moral failing.
Did Bahaullah really call some of Islam's most revered and renowned scholars "ignorant or antagonistic"?

I do not know of anywhere either Baha'u'llah or Abdul-Baha (who is quoted in the post you quoted) explicitly refute marriage to Aisha at a young age.

The illogic of the Baha'i who have replied here goes like this;
God said Muhammad 's character was excellent.
My own idea of excellence does not involve marriage to a 9 year old.
Therefore Muhammad definitely never engaged in it.

They don't stop to consider that the author of the Quran may have been human and that a humans idea of excellence may have been based on ignorance of what we now know.

In my opinion.

 

[stevecanuck]

Fraud.
It says "and of those too who have not had their courses". And that's after divorce. And they are as you yourself said "women".

Not "prepubescent babies".

Yet another swing and a miss. Well, actually it's an outright lie. I could not have been more clear in saying that when speaking of "those too who have have not had their courses", the Qur'an had moved beyond speaking of grown women and was now referring to those too young to have monthly periods.

Your desperation to pretend otherwise is getting boring.

**mod edit**

 

[firedragon]

They are not my arguments, the arguments against are yours and the arguments for are Shakeel's.

I am just an observer to the arguments.

Unfortunately it looks as though Shakeel is not going to participate, so people will only hear the against side and be left to make up their minds based on half the information.

In my opinion.

Who is Shakeel?

Anyway, don't worry. You don't need a Muslim to argue against, there are some atheists and christians in this thread who fill those shoes to argue for or against as long as it's demonising Islam and/or Muslims.

 

[KWED]

You have a right to your belief. This cut and paste response is only to respond to a hate spreader. That's all he deserves. Ignore it.

Worth bearing in mind that just because you don't agree with an argument, doesn't mean it is "spreading hate".

Ironically, part of the rationale behind sceptics criticising Islam is to counter the hate that is spread by the Quran and hadith against those who reject Islam.
(And just to negate any incoming straw men, no one is claiming that Islam is all about hate against disbelievers, but it does contain passages that clearly condone or prescribe hate, violence, and intolerance towards those who refuse to submit to Islam)

 

[KWED]

The marriage of nine-year-old girls is not forbidden because according to the Hadith (the Prophet Mohammed's sayings), Mohammed married Aisha when she was only seven-years-old and he consummated his union when she was nine.[30]
Sheikh Mohamed Ben Abderrahman Al-Maghraoui

There are so many more that justify it.

Prepare for a genetic fallacy attack!
Plus the usual credentials fallacy response.