Prophetical Time

[Ben Masada]

Prophetical Time

It has been a huge misconception among Christians, especially SDA Protestants to
make of a passage in the Tanach, where a day is taken as a year, and generalize it into a prophetic method. That's a mistake.

If we allow an analogy here with the mathematical value given to the unknown
quantities "x" and "y" by Mathematicians, we will see that the value given to the unknown elements "x" and "y" of an equation is arbitrary, according to the issue at hand.

The same method used by Mathematicians when solving an equation is the method used by Prophets and Theologians when solving the meaning of a prophecy. The method is arbitrary. What does it mean?

Let us take, for an example, the 40 days the 12 Israelites took to scout the Land of Canaan in Numbers 14:33,34. The "x" value for a day here would be a year. Therefore, 40 days scouting the land for 40 years of wandering in the desert. This does not mean at all as a rule, that a prophetic day must be for all cases determined to mean a year.

Since two visions took place in the case of Daniel, in the first one, he Prophet himself gives to the unknown factor of "x" the value of a week to mean a year, as we have 70 weeks in Daniel 9:24 to be fulfilled as 70 years. (Dan. 9:2)

In the second vision in Daniel 10, the Prophet refers to three full weeks (Dan. 10:2) or 21 days (Dan. 10:13) to bring the unknown value of "y" to the arbitrary value of a year. Hence, 21 years, so that the 70 years of the exile must be fulfilled, according to the injunction that, since 70 weeks had been decreed, 70 years had to be fulfilled. (Dan. 9:2,24)

A similar method is used in the NT with regards to the three days and three nights with the allowance to arbitrarily consider a whole day for the part of a day, and a whole night for the part of a night. That's not a general rule though, but an allowance to apply arbitrariness.

Conclusion:

Every Theologian has the freedom to use arbitrary value in prophetic time but a pattern is used to curb excesses: Isaiah 8:20. To probe not the method but the purpose. "To the Law and the Testemony; if they don't speak according to this pattern, it's because there is no light in them." Being the prophecy Jewish, the method and the purpose must be Jewish. Hence, any non-Jewish attempt is prone to fail right from the onset.

Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

I wonder why this thread hasn't produced a reply yet, when I consider it a hallmark in the understanding of time in prophecies.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

First one has to believe that prophecy has any relationship to time or in many cases reality.

 

[Ben Masada]

First one has to believe that prophecy has any relationship to time or in many cases reality.

Terrywoodenpic, prophecies are built with time and need time to be fulfilled. They are directly subject to time. Now, the reality of prophecy is depended on the initiation and expertise of the Theologian.

 

[Israel Ben-David]

The bible tells you itself when to use the method of a day for a thousand years. When you see the passage "time of the end". Then you use it.

 

[Ben Masada]

The bible tells you itself when to use the method of a day for a thousand years. When you see the passage "time of the end". Then you use it.

Not too clear. I don't know what you are talking about by "time of the end."

 

[jtartar]

I wonder why this thread hasn't produced a reply yet, when I consider it a hallmark in the understanding of time in prophecies.

Ben Masada,
Probably the reason no one answered your post is because they can tell that you do not really want the truth, but are only trying to destroy the faith of weak Christians.
Happily for Christians we have a protection from God Himself. If fact God's own word condemns your ideas. Prov 11:9 gives us protection from any apostates or ones who twist the scriptures to their own destruction, 2Pet 3:15-18.
The fact is; the word of the Hebrew Scriptures, which you profess to believe, prove you wrong,AGAIN!!! Numbers 14:34, and Eze 4:6, show that the formula of a day for a year was used by the early Israelites.
PLEEEEZZZEEE, before you make a fool of yourself, study at least, the Hebrew Scriptures, and quit making statements that are so easily proved wrong.
Things like this can make people pay little attention to your posts!!!

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben Masada,
Probably the reason no one answered your post is because they can tell that you do not really want the truth, but are only trying to destroy the faith of weak Christians.
Happily for Christians we have a protection from God Himself. If fact God's own word condemns your ideas. Prov 11:9 gives us protection from any apostates or ones who twist the scriptures to their own destruction, 2Pet 3:15-18.
The fact is; the word of the Hebrew Scriptures, which you profess to believe, prove you wrong,AGAIN!!! Numbers 14:34, and Eze 4:6, show that the formula of a day for a year was used by the early Israelites.
PLEEEEZZZEEE, before you make a fool of yourself, study at least, the Hebrew Scriptures, and quit making statements that are so easily proved wrong.
Things like this can make people pay little attention to your posts!!!

Neither of the quotations you give above of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6 gives the one day for a year as a rule or fix method. Therefore, Daniel chose to use "week" as a "year" and he was absolutely within his right to do so.

Seventy week/years which was exactly the time the Jews spent exiled in Babylon. So, don't come with your "PLEEEZZZEEE" because you are the one not making sense here.

I do agree with one day as a year if the Prophets so choose to used it as such. But they are within their right to use any part of the time as a year, just as we can use any part of a day as the whole day.

 

[Bick]

I agree basically with what you are saying.

As God inspired the writers of the OT books, they could equate weeks to years, as Daniel did.

If you have studied the importance of numbers in the Scriptures, you no doubt know, that the number 40 was related to judgment.

Another point, is that the Scriptures may equate days (or years) to some literal time period. But, they may use only figurative language, such as in

2 Peter 3:8: "...that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

To me, this just shows the patience of God; He does not get weary. It is to encourage believers looking for the day of the Lord to be patient.

 

[madhatter85]

to the OP,

The same thing happens with hardcore creationists who believe the bible to be literal and that the earth was created in six 24 hour periods. when the word translated into the term "day" merely means a period of time from beginning to end.

 

[Ben Masada]

I agree basically with what you are saying.

As God inspired the writers of the OT books, they could equate weeks to years, as Daniel did.

If you have studied the importance of numbers in the Scriptures, you no doubt know, that the number 40 was related to judgment.

Another point, is that the Scriptures may equate days (or years) to some literal time period. But, they may use only figurative language, such as in

2 Peter 3:8: "...that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

To me, this just shows the patience of God; He does not get weary. It is to encourage believers looking for the day of the Lord to be patient.

The "one day with the Lord being the same as a thousand years and vice-versa, means that God does not operate within any kind of time frame. There is no time in eternity. Time is related to body movement. God is Incorporeal.

 

[Ben Masada]

Deleted

 

[Ben Masada]

to the OP,

The same thing happens with hardcore creationists who believe the bible to be literal and that the earth was created in six 24 hour periods. when the word translated into the term "day" merely means a period of time from beginning to end.

I agree with you. They are periods of time. I said are because God has never ceased creating. Scientists have just discovered that the Universe expands. That's God at His work of Creation.

Once Einstein was asked if he believed in God. He answered and said that all his life was trying to catch God at His work of Creation.

 

[madhatter85]

I agree with you. They are periods of time. I said are because God has never ceased creating. Scientists have just discovered that the Universe expands. That's God at His work of Creation.

Once Einstein was asked if he believed in God. He answered and said that all his life was trying to catch God at His work of Creation.

Wonderfully put. frubals

 

[lockyfan]

ok so the seven weeks prophesy. Are you saying it was 70 phyical weeks or 70 physical years.

As here is something that I have com across in my travels that helps explain it

"Daniel indicates how long the time period leading to the arrival of “Messiah the Leader” would last. The prophecy mentions “seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks”—a total of 69 weeks. How long is this period of time? Several Bible translations note that these are, not weeks of seven days, but weeks of years. That is, each week represents seven years. This concept of weeks of years, or seven-year units, was familiar to Jews of ancient times. For instance, they observed a Sabbath year every seventh year. (Exodus 23:10, 11) Therefore, the prophetic 69 weeks amount to 69 units of 7 years each, or a total of 483 years."

I hope this helps you

 

[Ben Masada]

ok so the seven weeks prophesy. Are you saying it was 70 phyical weeks or 70 physical years.

As here is something that I have com across in my travels that helps explain it

"Daniel indicates how long the time period leading to the arrival of “Messiah the Leader” would last. The prophecy mentions “seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks”—a total of 69 weeks. How long is this period of time? Several Bible translations note that these are, not weeks of seven days, but weeks of years. That is, each week represents seven years. This concept of weeks of years, or seven-year units, was familiar to Jews of ancient times. For instance, they observed a Sabbath year every seventh year. (Exodus 23:10, 11) Therefore, the prophetic 69 weeks amount to 69 units of 7 years each, or a total of 483 years."

I hope this helps you

Everything is explained in details in my thread of the 70 Week/Years of Daniel. The author had to use two visions to come down with what I procuced in the thread. Gook luck!

 

[jtartar]

to the OP,

The same thing happens with hardcore creationists who believe the bible to be literal and that the earth was created in six 24 hour periods. when the word translated into the term "day" merely means a period of time from beginning to end.

madhatter,
The Almighty God who created the earth and the heaven and everything in them does not give people who do not give EXCLUSIVE worship to him, any kind of light, Ex 20:5, Deut 6:13,14, Luke 4:8.
God does not deal with false believers. Even Satan can read the Holy Scriptures and therfore can get some knowledge, just as the men you listed. The knowledge these men had came from PHILOSOPHY, by the process of Doping Out answers to problems. These men did not give complete to God's word, so God gave them nothing. We are warned in the Holy Scriptures about men who try to get truth by Philosophy, Col 2:8, instead of from God's word, Prov 3:5,6.

 

[lockyfan]

Madhatter I am a creationist. I know that the world wasnt created in 6 24hr days. Its impossible. I mean it took Jehovah how many millions of years to just create the first star.

He mightbe God but is still also limited to dealing with things in a timely manner. He wont rush anything. Thus the reason why Satans rul of this world has gone on so long, God has set forth a date that only he knows when it will be that he will bring the the war of Armageddon down on humans but we cant sit and say that its taking too long or not long enough, we are imperfect and dont have one tenth the wisdom that God has. God has forever and so do we if we serve God.

 

[madhatter85]

Madhatter I am a creationist. I know that the world wasnt created in 6 24hr days. Its impossible. I mean it took Jehovah how many millions of years to just create the first star.

He mightbe God but is still also limited to dealing with things in a timely manner. He wont rush anything. Thus the reason why Satans rul of this world has gone on so long, God has set forth a date that only he knows when it will be that he will bring the the war of Armageddon down on humans but we cant sit and say that its taking too long or not long enough, we are imperfect and dont have one tenth the wisdom that God has. God has forever and so do we if we serve God.

I would agree with you except for the notion of time and dates that are "set" which I don't believe to be an accurate representation of God's works. I think that Work needs done in order, one thing before the next, I don't think God said "Oh Satan can wander around for this many years before I do anything." Instead, certain events need to transpire, whatever the date is, the events just have to be done in order.

 

[madhatter85]

madhatter,
The Almighty God who created the earth and the heaven and everything in them does not give people who do not give EXCLUSIVE worship to him, any kind of light, Ex 20:5, Deut 6:13,14, Luke 4:8.
God does not deal with false believers. Even Satan can read the Holy Scriptures and therfore can get some knowledge, just as the men you listed. The knowledge these men had came from PHILOSOPHY, by the process of Doping Out answers to problems. These men did not give complete to God's word, so God gave them nothing. We are warned in the Holy Scriptures about men who try to get truth by Philosophy, Col 2:8, instead of from God's word, Prov 3:5,6.

Entirely false, All mankind has the light of Christ.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 8:12 ¶ Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

He wont grant people more light and knowledge than the very basics to those who do not worship him ONLY because we are held accountable for the knowledge we gain. And God would be a cruel god if he forced us to know everything while in mortality because we would make mistakes, nobody is perfect.

Alma 32:

16 Therefore, blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble; or rather, in other words, blessed is he that believeth in the word of God, and is baptized without stubbornness of heart, yea, without being brought to know the word, or even compelled to know, before they will believe. 17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?