Prophets--quality control. Especially for Muslims, LDS

[Autodidact]

Particularly for Muslims, LDS, Unification Church, or anyone else who accepts a specific person as a prophet of God.

When a man claims to be a prophet of God, what criteria do you use to determine whether he's telling the truth?

 

[A-ManESL]

I dont think there is a scientific set of criteria for that. You learn about the person and you grow to accept/love him in your heart. That is sufficient.

Regards

 

[Autodidact]

I dont think there is a scientific set of criteria for that. You learn about the person and you grow to accept/love him in your heart. That is sufficient.

Regards

You met Muhammed?

So if I get you, you have no criteria whatsoever to determine who is or is not a prophet of God, but you believe that Muhammed is one. Is that right?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I once had criteria for who I wanted to marry. I realized how foolish that was once I started building relationships.

 

[idea]

Simple - you know they're a prophet when you feel the Spirit around them.



(Guide to the Scriptures | P Prophet.:Entry)
PROPHET. See also President; Prophecy, Prophesy; Revelation; Seer
A person who has been called by and speaks for God. As a messenger of God, a prophet receives commandments, prophecies, and revelations from God. His responsibility is to make known God's will and true character to mankind and to show the meaning of his dealings with them. A prophet denounces sin and foretells its consequences. He is a preacher of righteousness. On occasion, prophets may be inspired to foretell the future for the benefit of mankind. His primary responsibility, however, is to bear witness of Christ. The President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's prophet on earth today. Members of the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators.

Would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, Num. 11:29. If there be a prophet, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, Num. 12:6. The Lord testified against Israel by all the prophets, 2 Kgs. 17:13 (2 Chr. 36:15–16; Jer. 7:25). I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations, Jer. 1:5, 7. He revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets, Amos 3:7. He spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, Luke 1:70 (Acts 3:21). All the prophets witnessed of Christ, Acts 10:43. God hath set prophets in the Church, 1 Cor. 12:28 (Eph. 4:11). The Church is built on a foundation of Apostles and prophets, Eph. 2:19–20. The people have rejected the words of the prophets, 1 Ne. 3:17–18 (2 Ne. 26:3). By the Spirit are all things made known unto the prophets, 1 Ne. 22:1–2. Christ came to the Nephites to fulfill all he had spoken by the mouths of his holy prophets, 3 Ne. 1:13 (D&C 42:39). Those who will not give heed to the words of prophets shall be cut off, D&C 1:14. Those who believe the words of the prophets have eternal life, D&C 20:26. The prophet's word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, D&C 21:4–6. Revelations and commandments for the Church come only through the one appointed, D&C 43:1–7. The duty of the President is to preside over the whole Church and to be like unto Moses, to be prophet, D&C 107:91–92. We believe in prophets, A of F 1:6.

 

[Zadok]

Particularly for Muslims, LDS, Unification Church, or anyone else who accepts a specific person as a prophet of God.

When a man claims to be a prophet of God, what criteria do you use to determine whether he's telling the truth?

If he provides himself as an example of what he teaches.

Zadok

 

[eliehass]

I would say that as far as Judaism is concerned, for someone to be considered a Prophet of God, firstly his prophecy must come true (if he says repent or God will punish you, and the people repent and therefore get no punishment, that is not a contradiction to his prophecy) and secondly he can't permanently change any law in the bible (and by Bible I mean the Jewish Bible which consists only of the Old Testament) so he can't say that God has told him to permanently change any law.

 

[Autodidact]

Simple - you know they're a prophet when you feel the Spirit around them.



(Guide to the Scriptures | PProphet.:Entry)
PROPHET. See also President; Prophecy, Prophesy; Revelation; Seer
A person who has been called by and speaks for God. As a messenger of God, a prophet receives commandments, prophecies, and revelations from God. His responsibility is to make known God's will and true character to mankind and to show the meaning of his dealings with them. A prophet denounces sin and foretells its consequences. He is a preacher of righteousness. On occasion, prophets may be inspired to foretell the future for the benefit of mankind. His primary responsibility, however, is to bear witness of Christ. The President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's prophet on earth today. Members of the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators.

Would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, Num. 11:29. If there be a prophet, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, Num. 12:6. The Lord testified against Israel by all the prophets, 2 Kgs. 17:13 (2 Chr. 36:15–16; Jer. 7:25). I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations, Jer. 1:5, 7. He revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets, Amos 3:7. He spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, Luke 1:70 (Acts 3:21). All the prophets witnessed of Christ, Acts 10:43. God hath set prophets in the Church, 1 Cor. 12:28 (Eph. 4:11). The Church is built on a foundation of Apostles and prophets, Eph. 2:19–20. The people have rejected the words of the prophets, 1 Ne. 3:17–18 (2 Ne. 26:3). By the Spirit are all things made known unto the prophets, 1 Ne. 22:1–2. Christ came to the Nephites to fulfill all he had spoken by the mouths of his holy prophets, 3 Ne. 1:13 (D&C 42:39). Those who will not give heed to the words of prophets shall be cut off, D&C 1:14. Those who believe the words of the prophets have eternal life, D&C 20:26. The prophet's word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, D&C 21:4–6. Revelations and commandments for the Church come only through the one appointed, D&C 43:1–7. The duty of the President is to preside over the whole Church and to be like unto Moses, to be prophet, D&C 107:91–92. We believe in prophets, A of F 1:6.

How would that work if you never met them?

 

[Autodidact]

If he provides himself as an example of what he teaches.

Zadok

So since I provide an example of what I teach, I'm a prophet of God?

 

[Autodidact]

I would say that as far as Judaism is concerned, for someone to be considered a Prophet of God, firstly his prophecy must come true (if he says repent or God will punish you, and the people repent and therefore get no punishment, that is not a contradiction to his prophecy) and secondly he can't permanently change any law in the bible (and by Bible I mean the Jewish Bible which consists only of the Old Testament) so he can't say that God has told him to permanently change any law.

Now at least we're getting empirical. Wouldn't the prophecy also have to be non-obvious? For example, if I prophecy that the sun will come up tomorrow, I probably don't qualify, true? And verifiable? For example, saying that God will punish you is a big vague, since anything unpleasant, even another Justin Beiber song, could be construed as God's punishment. So shouldn't it be a bit more specific? And finally, prospective, not retrospective?

 

[Autodidact]

Simple - you know they're a prophet when you feel the Spirit around them.



(Guide to the Scriptures | PProphet.:Entry)
PROPHET. See also President; Prophecy, Prophesy; Revelation; Seer
A person who has been called by and speaks for God. As a messenger of God, a prophet receives commandments, prophecies, and revelations from God. His responsibility is to make known God's will and true character to mankind and to show the meaning of his dealings with them. A prophet denounces sin and foretells its consequences. He is a preacher of righteousness. On occasion, prophets may be inspired to foretell the future for the benefit of mankind. His primary responsibility, however, is to bear witness of Christ. The President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's prophet on earth today. Members of the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators.

Would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, Num. 11:29. If there be a prophet, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, Num. 12:6. The Lord testified against Israel by all the prophets, 2 Kgs. 17:13 (2 Chr. 36:15–16; Jer. 7:25). I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations, Jer. 1:5, 7. He revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets, Amos 3:7. He spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, Luke 1:70 (Acts 3:21). All the prophets witnessed of Christ, Acts 10:43. God hath set prophets in the Church, 1 Cor. 12:28 (Eph. 4:11). The Church is built on a foundation of Apostles and prophets, Eph. 2:19–20. The people have rejected the words of the prophets, 1 Ne. 3:17–18 (2 Ne. 26:3). By the Spirit are all things made known unto the prophets, 1 Ne. 22:1–2. Christ came to the Nephites to fulfill all he had spoken by the mouths of his holy prophets, 3 Ne. 1:13 (D&C 42:39). Those who will not give heed to the words of prophets shall be cut off, D&C 1:14. Those who believe the words of the prophets have eternal life, D&C 20:26. The prophet's word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, D&C 21:4–6. Revelations and commandments for the Church come only through the one appointed, D&C 43:1–7. The duty of the President is to preside over the whole Church and to be like unto Moses, to be prophet, D&C 107:91–92. We believe in prophets, A of F 1:6.

It sounds like you've made your mind up in advance that if the purported prophet doesn't witness Christ, he's not a prophet. So if someone today says he's a prophet, and that Christ actually is not God, you know he's not a prophet?

 

[Autodidact]

Let's try this a different way. Forget about whatever prophet you're already endorsing. I'm sure you don't want to be taken in by any scam artist claiming to be a prophet of God, right? Let's say some guy rings your doorbell and says, "God has been appearing to me and telling me what He wants of us, and I wanted to share that information with you." How would you go about figuring out whether he really is, or whether he's just nuts or dishonest?

 

[eliehass]

Let's try this a different way. Forget about whatever prophet you're already endorsing. I'm sure you don't want to be taken in by any scam artist claiming to be a prophet of God, right? Let's say some guy rings your doorbell and says, "God has been appearing to me and telling me what He wants of us, and I wanted to share that information with you." How would you go about figuring out whether he really is, or whether he's just nuts or dishonest?

Your points on my previous statement were valid. If someone told me he was a prophet and I did not already know him to be one (not that I currently know anyone to be one) whether or not I believed what they said would depend on what they said. If they were to say that the sun will rise tomorrow (as you stated previously) surely that is meaningless. If they were to say God is aware that you are doing X (where X refers to a specific thing) and it is wrong and He commands you to stop, and the prophet is correct that I am doing X, I would be inclined to take his words into consideration. This is not prophet that he is a prophet, but I can't prove that he is not.

The surest way for a new prophet to establish himself, is to:
a) Follow the rules I mentioned earlier
b) Make a non-obvious prophecy and have it be fulfilled
c) To have signs (such as when the Jews were unsure if Moses was a true prophet, he produced signs, like turning his staff into a snake and turning his hand white with leprosy.

 

[eliehass]

Now at least we're getting empirical. Wouldn't the prophecy also have to be non-obvious? For example, if I prophecy that the sun will come up tomorrow, I probably don't qualify, true? And verifiable? For example, saying that God will punish you is a big vague, since anything unpleasant, even another Justin Beiber song, could be construed as God's punishment. So shouldn't it be a bit more specific? And finally, prospective, not retrospective?

I agree, the prophecy would have to be both specific and un-obvious.

 

[painted wolf]

I think the idea that a single person is in 24/7 direct contact with deity is foolish.

If a person has a vision/message from Creator and it comes to pass, then in that case they were a prophet...

If a person claims visions to seek power over others then they are not to be trusted. Those that claim continuing revelations of trivia and minutia are IMHO inserting themselves onto the process for whatever reason and are also to treated cautiously.

wa:do

 

[Zadok]

So since I provide an example of what I teach, I'm a prophet of God?

You are making this way too easy. The question was if someone claims to be a prophet of G-d (in other words they claim to speak for G-d) - How would I know they are a prophet?

First - you missed the part where they claim to speak for G-d. Since part of what you do is claim to be an atheist there would be a significant disconnect between what you are claiming.

Second – so far, what I have seen in your posting, you are consistent which tells me that for the most part you are honest so I doubt very much you would make much of an actual attempt to claim to be a prophetic mouth piece for G-d unless you felt you had something significant (which is somewhat missing from other voices) to add to the constant din because you had received such an commandment from G-d by covenant.

However, since I value your personal opinion – I am reading your posts (even though I may not respond to all of them).


Zadok

 

[Zadok]

I think the idea that a single person is in 24/7 direct contact with deity is foolish.

If a person has a vision/message from Creator and it comes to pass, then in that case they were a prophet...

If a person claims visions to seek power over others then they are not to be trusted. Those that claim continuing revelations of trivia and minutia are IMHO inserting themselves onto the process for whatever reason and are also to treated cautiously.

wa:do

I like your thinking - usually visions/messages from the Creator is given to an individual for personal reason. Only on rare occasions are visions/messages given to another because those that should receive the visions/messages are not listening or do not know how to listen.

BTW – I am assuming a wolf (for many reason) has personal significances to you. If so you were born to traditions which will assist you to know G-dly things.


Zadok

 

[A-ManESL]

You met Muhammed?

So if I get you, you have no criteria whatsoever to determine who is or is not a prophet of God, but you believe that Muhammed is one. Is that right?

I have no scientific criteria but to feel that Prophet Muhammad is indeed a Prophet, I learnt and read about him, and felt the truth of his message in his heart. That feeling is accompanied by love for him.

Regards.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

Particularly for Muslims, LDS, Unification Church, or anyone else who accepts a specific person as a prophet of God.

When a man claims to be a prophet of God, what criteria do you use to determine whether he's telling the truth?

To be honest, i have come to the idea that the mere notion of claiming (lonely) prophethood is already a string indication that one is not in contact with any god.

 

[Autodidact]

I have no scientific criteria but to feel that Prophet Muhammad is indeed a Prophet, I learnt and read about him, and felt the truth of his message in his heart. That feeling is accompanied by love for him.

Regards.

Was your family Muslim? Do you think that might have something to do with it?