Prophets--quality control. Especially for Muslims, LDS

[Autodidact]

No it isnt. In fact for external religion, which is the shell, I believe the opposite is true, people brought up in a particular culture tend to live their lives according to that culture.

But my main point is that for real religion, or inner religion, which is the kernel, your question is invalid as there are as many inner religions as individuals. So to classify people as Muslims and Mormons in that sense is itself invalid.

Regards.

What is the difference between "internal religion" and "external religion?"

 

[A-ManESL]

What is the difference between "internal religion" and "external religion?"

Inner religion is a human being's personal response to the transcendent, while outer religion comprises a set of beliefs, traditions etc. I do believe that outer religion is but a form to preserve and nourish inner religion.

You may find this interesting.

Regards.

 

[Autodidact]

Inner religion is a human being's personal response to the transcendent, while outer religion comprises a set of beliefs, traditions etc. I do believe that outer religion is but a form to preserve and nourish inner religion.

You may find this interesting.

Regards.

O.K., what's your outer religion?

 

[A-ManESL]

O.K., what's your outer religion?

It is Islam, with finer points interpreted in a specific way.

Regards.

 

[Autodidact]

It is Islam, with finer points interpreted in a specific way.

Regards.

O.K., so let's talk about that. Don't you think your outer religion is heavily influenced by whatever religion you were raised in?

 

[A-ManESL]

O.K., so let's talk about that. Don't you think your outer religion is heavily influenced by whatever religion you were raised in?

Yes...(i think i said so already, in post 38). Btw similarly my lifestyle, the clothes i wear, etc too was influenced. I assume that it is so, for nearly everyone.

Regards.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Acceptance of a person as a prophet involves either someone who is very charismatic, someone who is very gullible, or, quite often, both.

 

[tomato1236]

If God chooses a man, gives him a vision, a message, and instructions to preach repentence to the world, would it not be wise to ask God for confirmation of the truth? Leaving man to his own wisdom is the opposite of what God is going for when he sends prophets. Finding the truth about God is less about being a genius and more about humbling yourself and exercising faith by kneeling and asking God.

 

[tomato1236]

What we see over and over again is this pattern:
1. My family was religion X, and I was raised X.
2. I am X today.
3. I believe these two facts have no relationship to one another.

It's amazing.

Don't you think, A-Man, that the reason you believe that Muhammed was a prophet, is that you were told so from an early age? Just as Zadok was told the reverse, and now believes the reverse?

In other words, do you really think it's a coincidence that people who are raised Muslim become Muslim, and people who are raised LDS are LDS?

Anyway, my question is, if your next door neighbor starts telling you he is God's next prophet, how do you go about deciding whether he's telling the truth?

Just as you wouldn't want to be scammed by a fake prophet, you also wouldn't want to fail to follow a true one, correct?

Hey bud,

First of all, kids who are raised Mormon don't stay LDS because it's convenient, they stay LDS because The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints ROCKS!

I think you have a good point. In most religions there is a great deal of family and cultural expectation around succeeding in your inherited religion. The LDS Church is certainly no exception. It is much more difficult to be a casual LDS person than it is to be so in other religions, simply because it is a religion that demands all of your time, talents and energy given to God. This is not a go to church on Christmas and Easter situation. It's not even just attending on Sundays. You live your religion or you don't. There is typically a time in each individual's life where they really have to come to terms with that and decide (and they are strongly encouraged to do so on their own) if they believe it's true or they don't. There are many who leave the church and even denounce it because they are unwilling to make those sacrifices. Alcohol is too important. Premarital sex is too much fun, etc. The sin usually precedes doubt.
1. My family was religion X, and I was raised X.
2. I am X today.
3. I believe these two facts have a relationship to one another.
4. I investigated other religions, asked God in prayer and received my conversion to X.

 

[TEXASBULL]

If God chooses a man, gives him a vision, a message, and instructions to preach repentence to the world, would it not be wise to ask God for confirmation of the truth? Leaving man to his own wisdom is the opposite of what God is going for when he sends prophets. Finding the truth about God is less about being a genius and more about humbling yourself and exercising faith by kneeling and asking God.

Do you know one person or have you ever actually heard God after kneeling and asking?

Not a voice in your " head, spirit, or heart", not a " dream or a vision", but an actual audible voice in your ear holes? This question is not just for LDS, but for any person of faith.

so the question is , have you ever actually seen or heard God?

 

[tomato1236]

I recognize that this is for any faith. People of all faiths, and people of no faith at all, are allowed to pray to their creator and expect to be heard. Prayer doesn't belong to any group of people.

I have never seen God or heard him audibly. I believe there is something to be said for staying true to your principles and convictions even without laying your eyes on the face of God. I think it is absolutely appropriate and important to submit the suggestion to pray, since the exercise of faith had been mentioned not at all in 5 pages of discussion. We call ourselves people "of faith"...have we lost faith in faith?

 

[tomato1236]

Do you know one person or have you ever actually heard God after kneeling and asking?

Not a voice in your " head, spirit, or heart", not a " dream or a vision", but an actual audible voice in your ear holes? This question is not just for LDS, but for any person of faith.

so the question is , have you ever actually seen or heard God?

Additionally, if God showed himself to us all, and taught us and all people throughout history face to face, where would faith find its place? God has always followed a pattern of teaching his children through prophets to provide us with knowledge while still allowing us an opportunity to believe and act on that belief.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

Additionally, if God showed himself to us all, and taught us and all people throughout history face to face, where would faith find its place?

So the reason why he doesn't actually tell us anything and gives us good reason to believe in him is that then we wouldn't have any "faith" anymore?
Do you really believe this?
You believe in a God who created paradise and hell and tortures those that do not have faith in something for which they see no evidence for all eternaty. Faith by people living in totally different parts of the world with totally different claims about him or his existence. In short for something that they themselves cant even influence. And he is the lazy guy who sits around and demands that blind faith?
You know IF such a god existed he wouldnt be even worthy of praise.
Apart of that however there is an important mistake that you made.
Faith is not nessessarily related to knowledge.
You have faith in your wife dont you? Despite her being around and actually talking to you. Or perhaps exactly because she does that.

God has always followed a pattern of teaching his children through prophets to provide us with knowledge while still allowing us an opportunity to believe and act on that belief.

I would rephrase that into a : there have always been people around claiming to have messages from God and authority to teach others on what they supposedly should do or believe. And in all times they either got rich, were killed or both.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

Hmmm... thought the video was pretty specific...

How I can tell he (Muhammed PBUH) was telling the truth was what type of character he had , even before becoming a Prophet (PBUH)... and how he acted after becoming the Prophet(PBUH)... pretty much his whole life story indicates he was telling the truth...

Character is not related to truth. Character doesn't say anything at all about reality and the existence of anything.

Apart of that the character of a person often depends simply on the viewpoints of those that judge him.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I have never thought of Prophets as fortune tellers.

All the great prophets of the past have tried to warn the people of the error of their ways, and provided an alternative vision.
I would not expect a Muslim to accept any prophet since Mohamed as he declared himself to be the last. ( it is not necessary for me as a Christian to believe this to be True)
The LDS believe they are always led by a prophet. This seems an entirely reasonable belief.
However I would not expect their prophet to ever act other than a holy man leading his church, I would have thought any visions and major changes of direction from God would be rare and more a matter of bring people back to a clearer true understanding of God's wishes. Especially where there has been doubt or division amongst the faithful.

The Church of England needs such clarity now on how to implement women Bishops. But we do not recognise any Prophet with in the church.

 

[TEXASBULL]

Additionally, if God showed himself to us all, and taught us and all people throughout history face to face, where would faith find its place? God has always followed a pattern of teaching his children through prophets to provide us with knowledge while still allowing us an opportunity to believe and act on that belief.

Or might it be that there is a pattern of so called "prophets" who come out of the woods saying " hey, I was just in those woods all by myself and God appeared and spoke to me. Want to know what he said"?

That version or something like it has repeated itself all throughout history.

When another human tells you he or she has been talking to a deity and the deity was talking back, call the funny farm and order a room for one. Or you can believe them and have things like Judaism, Mormons, Jehovah witness, Muslims, Scientology, just to name a few. All these started out with a man and his "visions".

The question is, all these different men could not be all telling the truth. So who in this bunch was the liar? Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[Cypress]

I don't believe in that prophet-thing.

 

[tomato1236]

So the reason why he doesn't actually tell us anything and gives us good reason to believe in him is that then we wouldn't have any "faith" anymore?
Do you really believe this?

I do. I believe we are here to be tested. Learn to choose right from wrong. To learn all we can and become more like God. Part of that process is the mastery of faith. It's not that God just wants things to be hard for us. There is growth in self-development. There is growth in finding the answer for yourself. Parents do this with their kids all the time. If you just give your kid all the answers in life, he'll still need to learn it for himself eventually. God is just better at letting his kids go through that process than we are. He has given us the answers for guidance.

You believe in a God who created paradise and hell and tortures those that do not have faith in something for which they see no evidence for all eternaty. Faith by people living in totally different parts of the world with totally different claims about him or his existence. In short for something that they themselves cant even influence.

I don't believe in this. God is a fair and loving person. He will not judge harshly someone who did not have the knowledge to act upon. Also, I believe that every single person will eventually be given a fair chance to hear and receive the truth, or to reject it, whether in this life or the next.

And he is the lazy guy who sits around and demands that blind faith?

God is the opposite of lazy. I believe that in heaven, nobody will be sitting around playing a harp on a cloud. They will be working, creating, growing and caring for their families.

Apart of that however there is an important mistake that you made.
Faith is not nessessarily related to knowledge.
You have faith in your wife dont you? Despite her being around and actually talking to you. Or perhaps exactly because she does that.

Faith in Christ (or another God) is different than faith in your wife, or your wife being faithful. Some knowledge is required for faith. If you don't have any knowledge, then how do you know what to have faith in? Also, beliefs, when acted upon, can produce knowledge.

I would rephrase that into a : there have always been people around claiming to have messages from God and authority to teach others on what they supposedly should do or believe. And in all times they either got rich, were killed or both.

This is fair. There have certainly been many of those claiming to be prophets, whether true or false. Many have been killed, and I submit that there is nothing immoral about being killed, nor is that an indicator that their message was uninspired. Quite likely on the contrary. Also, if a man preaches for financial gain, or for personal power, he is not of God.

 

[tomato1236]

Or might it be that there is a pattern of so called "prophets" who come out of the woods saying " hey, I was just in those woods all by myself and God appeared and spoke to me. Want to know what he said"?

That version or something like it has repeated itself all throughout history.

When another human tells you he or she has been talking to a deity and the deity was talking back, call the funny farm and order a room for one. Or you can believe them and have things like Judaism, Mormons, Jehovah witness, Muslims, Scientology, just to name a few. All these started out with a man and his "visions".

The question is, all these different men could not be all telling the truth. So who in this bunch was the liar? Inquiring minds want to know!

That's something I'm curious about, too. What's the deal with this Mohammed guy? A whole religion revolves around him, and he had some good points. Makes me wonder if maybe he was inspired by the same God as the Christian prophets. Not sure how a different religion comes out of it, though.

 

[Wandered Off]

Additionally, if God showed himself to us all, and taught us and all people throughout history face to face, where would faith find its place? God has always followed a pattern of teaching his children through prophets to provide us with knowledge while still allowing us an opportunity to believe and act on that belief.

Why is it valuable to have a place for faith? It seems to me our tendency to believe things without evidence is ripe for exploitation by tyrants of all stripes. History is a cautionary tale of the downside risk, so what's the value?