• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Prophets--quality control. Especially for Muslims, LDS

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I said yeah. Yeah means yes.

Really? Because all the research on the question says just the opposite.

For example, if you toss a coin 100 times, and pray as hard as you can for heads, do you think it will come up heads right around 50 times, more or less?

If 100 people are diagnosed with lung cancer, and you and everyone in your stake prays as hard as they can for 50 of them (without telling them) and then doctors who don't know which is which review their medical records, do you think they will get better at a higher rate than those who are not prayed for?

If a hurricane is headed for Houston, and everyone there prays with all their might, do you think it is any less likely to hit Houston?
 

tomato1236

Ninja Master
Really? Because all the research on the question says just the opposite.

For example, if you toss a coin 100 times, and pray as hard as you can for heads, do you think it will come up heads right around 50 times, more or less?

If 100 people are diagnosed with lung cancer, and you and everyone in your stake prays as hard as they can for 50 of them (without telling them) and then doctors who don't know which is which review their medical records, do you think they will get better at a higher rate than those who are not prayed for?

If a hurricane is headed for Houston, and everyone there prays with all their might, do you think it is any less likely to hit Houston?

Haha jeez. You're just dodging my language and repeating that study I read on the intervention thread.

Why would people pray for 50 people and not pray for the other 50. Especially if all 100 were complete strangers? Do you think a setup of these scenarios would produce sincere prayers? On the contrary, it looks to me like these are purely prayers of the faithless--prayers designed to test God (called tempting God in the scriptures). While you're at it, why don't you just build a tower to get to heaven?
 

tomato1236

Ninja Master
Haha jeez. You're just dodging my language and repeating that study I read on the intervention thread.

Why would people pray for 50 people and not pray for the other 50. Especially if all 100 were complete strangers? Do you think a setup of these scenarios would produce sincere prayers? On the contrary, it looks to me like these are purely prayers of the faithless--prayers designed to test God (called tempting God in the scriptures). While you're at it, why don't you just build a tower to get to heaven?

Again, this all comes down to being not faithless, but believing. If you don't believe, you don't believe. If you did this study, and 62% of the ones prayed for recovered a little faster than the others, you would just start listing factors that contributed to the improvement, like hope, or placebo, etc. And you might say they only healed faster, but were not completely healed, and why weren't they? And the sampling size was too small. Why didn't God heal 100 percent of the patients, and why not heal the 50 that weren't prayed for if he's a just God?

If you don't believe, then just don't. I believe, and I don't need to do studies to quantify my belief. If a study like this resulted in 0 healings, I would have reasons why that doesn't hurt my faith. Prayers are contingent on faith. Prayers are contingent on sincerity. God doesn't always say yes in answer to prayers. Often suffering has a purpose. Etc. Etc. Etc.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Haha jeez. You're just dodging my language and repeating that study I read on the intervention thread.

Why would people pray for 50 people and not pray for the other 50. Especially if all 100 were complete strangers? Do you think a setup of these scenarios would produce sincere prayers? On the contrary, it looks to me like these are purely prayers of the faithless--prayers designed to test God (called tempting God in the scriptures). While you're at it, why don't you just build a tower to get to heaven?

So that would be no, the results would not be any different from random chance?

Actually, no, in the medical experiments, extremely devout people agreed to pray energetically for some subject of the studies. So no, they were not prayers of the faithless, quite the contrary.

Here's how they did it: They recruited a prayer circle to pray for someone, without explaining why. Kind of like churches do: "Would you please pray for Joe to recover from his cancer? Thank you." When they checked, the patients prayed for did not get better at any greater rate than those not prayed for. How do you account for this, if God grants prayers at a greater rate than random chance?

How about if your brother had his leg shot off in Falujah. Do you think your prayers would cause his leg to grow back? Or might medicine be a more effective treatment?

And don't forget those poor citizens of Houston. They're devout! They're sincere! The hurricane is headed their way. They're praying with everything they've got. Do you think it would make it any less likely to hit their city?
 
Last edited:

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Again, this all comes down to being not faithless, but believing. If you don't believe, you don't believe. If you did this study, and 62% of the ones prayed for recovered a little faster than the others, you would just start listing factors that contributed to the improvement, like hope, or placebo, etc.
No, the point of a well-designed study is to control for those factors. In fact, if they got better at a significantly faster rate, I'd be a theist today.
And you might say they only healed faster, but were not completely healed, and why weren't they? And the sampling size was too small. Why didn't God heal 100 percent of the patients, and why not heal the 50 that weren't prayed for if he's a just God?
That's not the question. The question is, does God grant prayers? Well, does He, or doesn't He? Or, to be more precise, does He at any greater rate than random chance?

You say yes, yet I can't think of a single example where that's what we see, can you?

If you don't believe, then just don't. I believe, and I don't need to do studies to quantify my belief. If a study like this resulted in 0 healings, I would have reasons why that doesn't hurt my faith. Prayers are contingent on faith. Prayers are contingent on sincerity. God doesn't always say yes in answer to prayers. Often suffering has a purpose. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Yes, I understand. But the question is, when you take all of these factors into account, it turns out to add up to the same result as random chance. Interesting, no?
 
Last edited:

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
tomato said:
If a study like this resulted in 0 healings, I would have reasons why that doesn't hurt my faith.

Exactly. Thank you. It has nothing to do with whether God answers prayers. I do wonder why you said it did. Can you tell us?

In fact your faith is impervious to reality. You believe because you believe. And that is what I find morally irresponsible.
 

tomato1236

Ninja Master
I believe God answers prayers. This is based on my experience. It is interesting that people in the study actually did worse when prayed for. Yeah.

I believe because I have been inspired to believe, and have had experiences and feelings to back up that in which I believe. I would find it morally irresponsible to abandon my faith in spite of these feelings and experiences.
 

no-body

Well-Known Member
The real reason is popularity. You can make up the miracles and idealize them after some time has passed when it isn't verifiable anymore.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
So, your quality control on how to tell whether a given individual is whether the God he's prophesying from grants prayers. Since all of them grant prayers at the exact same rate, this is also the same as no god at all, why have you decided that your prophet is a true one?
 

tomato1236

Ninja Master
So, your quality control on how to tell whether a given individual is whether the God he's prophesying from grants prayers. Since all of them grant prayers at the exact same rate, this is also the same as no god at all, why have you decided that your prophet is a true one?

I never said that. You're just making up crap and telling me I believe it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
name of thread said:
Auto said:
So, your quality control on how to tell whether a given individual is whether the God he's prophesying from grants prayers.
I never said that. You're just making up crap and telling me I believe it.
tomato said:
It comes down to believing that God answers prayers.

I will allow your rude aggression once. Next time, I report. You're warned.

Now can we discuss the issues without aggressive taunts? Thanks.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Tell me more about your conversion. What did you convert from?

Well what would you like to know? I was a Buddhist before. Although not a very good one. I was more a... cultural Buddhist then a real Buddhist. That is, I didn't follow a lot of the rules really, nor did I study the scripture.
I am majoring in theology in school right now. I was studying about many different religions. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Baha'i, Sikh, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Jainism etc etc
But Islam got me real interested. I wasn't looking for a new religion but I just loved the way Islam sounded. Complete Submission to Allah (swt). Of course at the time I did not believe in God. Although I was Buddhist I was a strong atheist. I read books such as Godless by Dan Barker and excerpts from the God delusion and others. I was at that point convinced that religion was not evil in itself, but was in the way of true peace. So even though I thought Islam was a nice idea, I at the time decided it had flaws.

I began to read about Prophet Muhammad (saws) and really admired him. He was a revolutionary. He was a spiritual person and completely absorbed in the love of Allah (swt). He did so many wonderful things, and his followers, although not perfect, also did wonderful things.

I read the Qur'an and at first when I read it I got afraid and kind of sad. It had beautiful descriptions but also horrific ones of hellfire. When I heard it in Arabic I was shocked! But still nonetheless scared of it.

I began to research Sharia and some aspects of it put me off as well at first.
The whole Dhimmi idea. The punishments of adultery and homosexuality. And apostasy, theft, a whole multitude of ideas. Although I agreed with the idea behind it, the manner in which it was to be carried out I did not like.
I am more liberal when it comes to Sharia law then other Muslims. Although, I still hold the belief that Adultery, apostasy, theft and those others are a huge sin.

I began to contemplate the idea of God. I liked the idea of pantheism, and the idea of the Brahman in Hinduism. It took me a while to believe that God was a good part of life. that being said, whether or not he existed didn't matter at that point, I thought it was good to have a belief in HIm. Then later, I began to believe in Him as well.

Then I began to see the Qur'an as a model for me to be. And Prophet Muhammad (saws) as the ideal person to strive to be. I didn't accept him yet as a Prophet or the Qur'an as the literal word of God. I was more a... I guess a Sufi then anything. (although a lot of Sufis are Muslim, not all of them are). Oh I forgot to mention the whole hellfire thing also kind of making me sad.

I began to pray as Muslims do. I began to fast. I gave to charity, lowered my gaze, did not do sexual promiscuity, did not steal, stopped doing drugs (I did pot), and all these other things. I saw that in a lot of ways I was already Muslim. After a while I realized that I was a Muslim. So I took my shahada (declaration of faith) at a mosque, and have been going there ever since.
 

Luminous

non-existential luminary
The only real submission to God is when you confess your agnosticism...otherwise you are only submitting to delusions (most likely created by Mara).
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Well what would you like to know? I was a Buddhist before. Although not a very good one. I was more a... cultural Buddhist then a real Buddhist. That is, I didn't follow a lot of the rules really, nor did I study the scripture.
I am majoring in theology in school right now. I was studying about many different religions. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Baha'i, Sikh, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Jainism etc etc
But Islam got me real interested. I wasn't looking for a new religion but I just loved the way Islam sounded. Complete Submission to Allah (swt). Of course at the time I did not believe in God. Although I was Buddhist I was a strong atheist. I read books such as Godless by Dan Barker and excerpts from the God delusion and others. I was at that point convinced that religion was not evil in itself, but was in the way of true peace. So even though I thought Islam was a nice idea, I at the time decided it had flaws.

I began to read about Prophet Muhammad (saws) and really admired him. He was a revolutionary. He was a spiritual person and completely absorbed in the love of Allah (swt). He did so many wonderful things, and his followers, although not perfect, also did wonderful things.

I read the Qur'an and at first when I read it I got afraid and kind of sad. It had beautiful descriptions but also horrific ones of hellfire. When I heard it in Arabic I was shocked! But still nonetheless scared of it.

I began to research Sharia and some aspects of it put me off as well at first.
The whole Dhimmi idea. The punishments of adultery and homosexuality. And apostasy, theft, a whole multitude of ideas. Although I agreed with the idea behind it, the manner in which it was to be carried out I did not like.
I am more liberal when it comes to Sharia law then other Muslims. Although, I still hold the belief that Adultery, apostasy, theft and those others are a huge sin.

I began to contemplate the idea of God. I liked the idea of pantheism, and the idea of the Brahman in Hinduism. It took me a while to believe that God was a good part of life. that being said, whether or not he existed didn't matter at that point, I thought it was good to have a belief in HIm. Then later, I began to believe in Him as well.

Then I began to see the Qur'an as a model for me to be. And Prophet Muhammad (saws) as the ideal person to strive to be. I didn't accept him yet as a Prophet or the Qur'an as the literal word of God. I was more a... I guess a Sufi then anything. (although a lot of Sufis are Muslim, not all of them are). Oh I forgot to mention the whole hellfire thing also kind of making me sad.

I began to pray as Muslims do. I began to fast. I gave to charity, lowered my gaze, did not do sexual promiscuity, did not steal, stopped doing drugs (I did pot), and all these other things. I saw that in a lot of ways I was already Muslim. After a while I realized that I was a Muslim. So I took my shahada (declaration of faith) at a mosque, and have been going there ever since.

That is a very interesting and unusual story. Thank you. You are the exception among theists.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I gather that you don't think that Muhammed was a pedophile, you think having many wives is fine, and you have no problem with sexual inequality?
 
Top