Pros and cons of Catholicism.

[Kenny]

How does this have to do with telling Frank that he can change his desires regarding transitioning when that means you are telling him to change who he is when he has been male sense birth?

How can you change who you are sex/gender if you have been like that since birth?​

I've always been female both sex and gender and have sexual orientation to members of my own gender since birth. So, a similiar question, how can I (or Frank) change who we are since we have been like this since birth?

Why would you compare it to "doing what one wants" and relationship to sin as if aligning one's sex with one's gender (or if I could make myself straight) is a choice?

You need to go back and reeead what was said - it is all self explanatory

He was talking about changing faith

I answered your question and you completely ignored it

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You need to go back and reeead what was said - it is all self explanatory

He was talking about changing faith

I answered your question and you completely ignored it

Yeah, and I am changing faith because of the Church's institutional problems and my not really believing in the theology.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You need to go back and reeead what was said - it is all self explanatory

He was talking about changing faith

I answered your question and you completely ignored it

Ken.

- The Church's stance on LGBT people. I'm a trans man and identity as queer/pansexual. I have transitioned. Since I have transitioned, the Vatican's official line would be that I'm living a lie, perverting God's plan and that I can't even be a Godparent, let alone get married. So I can't really be a full member of the Church. I am also not really out at church and the thought is a bit daunting to me.

So transitioning isn't about one transitioning about who I think I want to be or adapting scripture to what I want but rather being cleansed by His Word and transitioning what I was into the image of Christ.

Frank is talking about transitioning so that his sex can match his gender identity not spiritual transformation.

Okay, but I don't see what that has to do with medically and socially transitioning as a transsexual.

Because one is doing what one wants to do vs what one should do according to what Jesus wants. Much like Adam when he did what he wanted to do vs what God asked him to do.

This is very inappropriate to say because aligning your sex with your gender is not something many people just go off and "want" to do. If you know about gender dysphoria, it's about a personal suffering that one feels they must do in order to be who they are and have been since birth. It is not a choice.

Relating it to Adam's disobedience is inappropriate as well well intentioned or not.

So, again my question:

If Frank went back to Christ and Frank is a male not female, how do you choose to be someone you already are? If god created everyone who they are, and as a male, Frank transitioned physically as such, how is he doing what he "wants" when he is already male to begin with?

And what have I said that is horrible? I would say the same thing for me and for the rest of the world. When one follows Jesus, one does what He would like us to do and not just what we want to do. Heaven knows that I use to do what I wanted to do.

Because you are relating someone's gender dysphoria and choice to align their sex with their gender with a choice to sin and disobedience. It's not only inappropriate it's also illogical if you know at least at surface level from the experiences of many transgender people of what gender dysphoria is beyond medical books.

How do you change yourself to be who you are when you are that person in the beginning? If you're male, how do you change yourself to be male and go with your own desire to be one, when you have been male sense birth?

So my question is, if aligning your sex with your gender is a desire that is against god, let me ask again, you were born male with a sex of a male (right?) how can you "choose" to be who you were since birth....

on that note...

I can't be transformed into something I'm not. Or rather, I don't agree with the idea of being transformed into something other than I am.

What does the below have anything to do with what Frank is talking about in regards to this particular con of the Church?

When one is "Born again", my spirit ceased being what it used to be. Spiritually, I was no longer was what I used to be along with its foundational construct.

 

[Kenny]

Yeah, and I am changing faith because of the Church's institutional problems and my not really believing in the theology.

I believe I said that my wife and I left the Catholic Church because of Theologocal difference - if I didn't - I have now

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I believe I said that my wife and I left the Catholic Church because of Theologocal difference - if I didn't - I have now

I am also not interested in Protestantism or Orthodox Christianity (Orthodoxy is even more conservative than American Catholicism tends to be).

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

Pretty much.

Give me a few minutes to get over my initial cringe over a viewpoint which I consider to be one of the main current problems with humanity before responding in full to that.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Give me a few minutes to get over my initial cringe over a viewpoint which I consider to be one of the main current problems with humanity before responding in full to that.

What's the problem? Humans are simply not going to agree on what is true in terms of religion.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

What's the problem? Humans are simply not going to agree on what is true in terms of religion.

If we did not agree on whether or not the earth is round does that change the truth of the matter?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If we did not agree on whether or not the earth is round does that change the truth of the matter?

Is truth the same as facts, philosophically?

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

Is truth the same as facts, philosophically?

The truth is what something actually is.

Facts, opinions, viewpoints, and such are all perceptions of what something is with varying levels of certainty.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

But "Universal" it is.

I know what Catholic means in terms of "universal", and I don't think that's what you think it means. What it does mean is that if you go to a Catholic mass in New Mexico and a Catholic mass in Seoul, they will be the exact same thing.

Why you think syncretism is bad I can only guess, but it really is not. All religions have elements that other religions do. There are no exceptions.

And all religions have things that are unique. "Syncretism" can be a bad thing because quite often it is handled poorly, for dubious intents, and does a great disrespect to one or both religions trying to be merged.

And pagans today are more copying them than how it was originally.

You really need to back this up. But I can tell you that as a practicing Pagan, we do not. We don't just "remove" the bible and practice the same thing that Christians do. That is an absolutely ridiculous statement.

Not really when one Christian speaks to another - its biblical

You can call it what you want, ken, but the fact of the matter is that you're talking more than your god. You're trying to persuade and push someone to what you think is right, not necessarily what your god might be telling them to do.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

What it does mean is that if you go to a Catholic mass in New Mexico and a Catholic mass in Seoul, they will be the exact same thing.

Actually, what it means by "universal" is that it believes itself to be the "One True Church" established for all mankind. All other churches (to Catholics, the only time "church" should be capitalized is in reference to the Catholic Church as a whole) are seen as schismatic (in nicer terms "separated brethren"). There are different liturgies and rites in the Catholic Church, so not all Masses will be the same. What matters is that they all are communion with the Bishop of Rome, the Pope.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

That's just what it means to believe that they are the "true church." The Universal aspect is as I said; global uniformity to doctrine and dogma. Not only was I a Catholic for 17 years or so, but I spent 4 years in Catechism classes, so I know a good deal more about Catholicism than most Catholics. Technically, I could be ordained.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That's just what it means to believe that they are the "true church." The Universal aspect is as I said; global uniformity to doctrine and dogma. Not only was I a Catholic for 17 years or so, but I spent 4 years in Catechism classes, so I know a good deal more about Catholicism than most Catholics. Technically, I could be ordained.

Fair enough.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

Personally, I don't understand how one can consciously choose a religion. If it doesn't grab your heart and mind, why bother?
It seems that some people select a religion the way they do a haircut or something. I don't get that.

But I have noticed that you are a lot more fun and easier to get along with on RF when you're a pagan or Satanist or something. When you reconvert to Catholicism you're consistently less happy and more judgmental. When I first joined RF you were a raging Satanist and you and I got along like houses on fire. Then you converted to Catholicism and started putting me on ignore whenever you didn't like what I said, and got me booted out of the Catholic DIR.
I cannot help but think that Catholicism doesn't work for you, as much as it does for me. YMMV. I am certainly not telling you what to do, just expressing my observations over the last few years.
Tom

Don't understand

A few scriptures and such,

 

[Kenny]

It really shouldn't be a problem. Matt 19:12 says that Jesus noted there some men without their junk for various reasons, and we should get over it. I think that pretty much sums it up, don't you?


Maybe it's about wanting to find a religion that isn't remarkably hypocritical?

I mean, the bible bans cross-dressing, but let's be honest: they ALL wore essentially what looked like nightgowns.


And Christianity and Judaism both owe a lot to the Greeks anyway

At any rate, see it as I see myself: You were in grade school, and now you've realized it's time to graduate and live an adult life.


There are even books of the bible which critique other books of the bible. Ruth and Job are two just off the top of my head. Then you have Paul vs the Apostles, etc.


It's not like God has never screwed up someone, though.


Which is also unfair to cis men who for whatever reason are missing a few body parts.


I don't see a need for any of the genders.


AMEN!

The Church: Jesus says we're all equal.

Except for you.

And you.

Ugh, are you still here?

And you... etc.

I don't really try to answer your points. They are filled with opinions and unsupportive statements that really don't amount to much.

 

[Kenny]

I am also not interested in Protestantism or Orthodox Christianity (Orthodoxy is even more conservative than American Catholicism tends to be).

I have come to that conclusion.

My point was simply this... it appears that you are saying "I am not interested in this belief system and that belief system because they are conservative or because they don't match what I want to believe.

My approach is more along the lines of "I believe in this faith because of its tenants and reasons for them, therefore I will change my belief system and conform to the God it represents". I'm not saying you have to have my faith... whether it is Buddhism, Hinduism or whatever... then I adapt to its standards because of the faith that I subscribe to.

I would think that my position is more logical. But I have been wrong before.

 

[Kenny]

You can call it what you want, ken, but the fact of the matter is that you're talking more than your god. You're trying to persuade and push someone to what you think is right, not necessarily what your god might be telling them to do.

I disagree.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Really. So where's your god talking?

 

[pearl]

Personally, I don't understand how one can consciously choose a religion. If it doesn't grab your heart and mind, why bother?

Faith in God is a response to God's question; "Where ART Thou?" Faith is man's search for God , God's search for man.

"We must not equate the act of faith with its expression. The expression of faith is an affirmation of truth, a definite judgment, a conviction, while faith itself is an event, something that happens rather than something that is stored away: it is a moment in which the soul of man communes with the glory of God."
Abraham Heschel