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Proselytizing signs

taykair

Active Member
As I watch the Olympic luge team relay, I notice a guy in the grandstand at the finish with a sign that says:

JESUS = HEAVEN
NO JESUS = HELL

Do people actually expect this sort of thing to win converts?

Although I also see this tactic as ineffectual, I suppose the fact that I come from a fundamentalist Christian background allows me to see this person's effort is a slightly different way.

If you believed that someone you love will be hurt unless you help them, then it is an act of kindness and compassion to help them is it not?

So it is with some (I said some) Christians. They really and truly believe that non-believers will end up in Hell. It is not a fairy tale to them, but rather a very real danger. Yes, there are Christians who, it seems, rather enjoy telling people that they are going to Hell. But is it not possible that some of them, out of love for us, desire only to rescue us from that perceived danger?

I think, perhaps, this person's efforts are an example of "zeal without wisdom".
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Although I also see this tactic as ineffectual, I suppose the fact that I come from a fundamentalist Christian background allows me to see this person's effort is a slightly different way.

If you believed that someone you love will be hurt unless you help them, then it is an act of kindness and compassion to help them is it not?

So it is with some (I said some) Christians. They really and truly believe that non-believers will end up in Hell. It is not a fairy tale to them, but rather a very real danger. Yes, there are Christians who, it seems, rather enjoy telling people that they are going to Hell. But is it not possible that some of them, out of love for us, desire only to rescue us from that perceived danger?

I think, perhaps, this person's efforts are an example of "zeal without wisdom".
I get all that. What I don't get is why someone would decide that showing that sign to the camera at the Olympics was the best use of his time and resources to try to achieve that goal.

How much does a ticket to the Olympics cost? I'm sure it could have paid for plenty of brochures with his full argument that he could have handed out. Heck - he could have used the money to pay people to attend his church. I'm trying to figure out the missing step in his thought process:

1. I want to bring people to Christ.
2. Therefore, ???
3. Therefore, I'll flash a "JESUS = HEAVEN" sign at the TV cameras at the Olympics.

I'm okay with recognizing that his overall goal is to "save" people. What I don't understand is why anyone would think that sign would "save" anyone.
 

taykair

Active Member
I get all that. What I don't get is why someone would decide that showing that sign to the camera at the Olympics was the best use of his time and resources to try to achieve that goal.

How much does a ticket to the Olympics cost? I'm sure it could have paid for plenty of brochures with his full argument that he could have handed out. Heck - he could have used the money to pay people to attend his church. I'm trying to figure out the missing step in his thought process:

1. I want to bring people to Christ.
2. Therefore, ???
3. Therefore, I'll flash a "JESUS = HEAVEN" sign at the TV cameras at the Olympics.

I'm okay with recognizing that his overall goal is to "save" people. What I don't understand is why anyone would think that sign would "save" anyone.

Because, as I said, his zeal overwhelmed his wisdom. It happens. You know that.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Best thing I can come up with is people in a really bad place that are open [and possibly praying] to a solution to their despair and know a little about who Jesus is. Maybe they are borderline suicidal?

Atheism sure as hell is going to bring any comfort to that.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
As I watch the Olympic luge team relay, I notice a guy in the grandstand at the finish with a sign that says:

JESUS = HEAVEN
NO JESUS = HELL

Do people actually expect this sort of thing to win converts?

It's affected you to evangelize! Now, please stop evangelizing before I have to report you to the mods.

You Christians are SHAMELESS!
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Are you so anti-free speech you think he should not be allowed to express his view in a calm and orderly fashion of merely holding up a sign?
Nobody is trying to prevent him. Just discuss the motivation and thought processes behind some unusual behavior.

To me, it kinda reeks of self righteous hypocrisy, "Look at how Christian I am!". While spending a bunch of money and time watching a sporting event, instead of doing anything in the "What Would Jesus Do" vein.
Of course, it's well within his rights to make Christianity look like the religion of self righteous hypocrites. But the Christians I respect tend towards the "Preach the Gospel always, use words only when absolutely necessary" ethos.

Which is very different from this.
Tom
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Best thing I can come up with is people in a really bad place that are open [and possibly praying] to a solution to their despair and know a little about who Jesus is. Maybe they are borderline suicidal?

Atheism sure as hell is going to bring any comfort to that.
Actually, you remind me of an interview I heard with a psychologist talking about "faith-based counselling:" he talked about how when a patient is religious, if they pray and don't get better, they can get despondent and feel hopeless (e.g. "God answers every prayer, but sometimes the answer is 'no'. I guess God doesn't want me to get better... so why bother trying?"). In these cases, atheism can give hope.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Actually, you remind me of an interview I heard with a psychologist talking about "faith-based counselling:" he talked about how when a patient is religious, if they pray and don't get better, they can get despondent and feel hopeless (e.g. "God answers every prayer, but sometimes the answer is 'no'. I guess God doesn't want me to get better... so why bother trying?"). In these cases, atheism can give hope.

Oh that's very common, I agree.

Not sure how atheism would bring hope to that situation though.

It's like saying cereal would heal a wound if you simply resort to it. What cereal? What is cereal?

I mean, as soon as you start defining, you start sounding awfully religious without all the rules and stuff.......and yeah.........and the god part.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Oh that's very common, I agree.

Not sure how atheism would bring hope to that situation though.
Because if God doesn't want you to get better, you definitely won't be getting better. OTOH, take God out of the picture and you just might get better. It might still be difficult, but "difficult" has more inherent hope than "impossible."
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Because if God doesn't want you to get better, you definitely won't be getting better. OTOH, take God out of the picture and you just might get better. It might still be difficult, but "difficult" has more inherent hope than "impossible."

That only works if you have the common misconception that suffering has nothing of value.

And having suffering be of value is sure a hell of a lot better than "might get better".
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Actually, you remind me of an interview I heard with a psychologist talking about "faith-based counselling:" he talked about how when a patient is religious, if they pray and don't get better, they can get despondent and feel hopeless (e.g. "God answers every prayer, but sometimes the answer is 'no'. I guess God doesn't want me to get better... so why bother trying?"). In these cases, atheism can give hope.
Personally, I don't think people should pray to get better at all. Because obviously not all people get better and that's going to lead to questions of favoritism and more anguish. It's better to pray for the strength to bear it and for acceptance.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
As I watch the Olympic luge team relay, I notice a guy in the grandstand at the finish with a sign that says:

JESUS = HEAVEN
NO JESUS = HELL

Do people actually expect this sort of thing to win converts?
It all depends on the context.

Is the sign claiming that everyone needs to believe in and accept the teachings of the sign-bearers version of Jesus in order to avoid Hell?

Perhaps. But I initially saw it a bit differently.

I saw the sign saying that only through what Jesus has done for us can we receive endless joy, or entrance to Heaven and that if there were "no Jesus", all Mankind would be consigned to Hell, or endless misery.

Ignoring for a moment the belief that the pre-mortal Jesus Christ created the entire physical Universe (John 1), let's operate under the idea that we somehow existed without Him first creating all things, what would happen to all Mankind if Jesus had never entered into mortality and performed His Atoning Sacrifice?

I am a Latter-Day Saint (aka "Mormon") so I will be quoting from the Book of Mormon, even though the Bible supports the ideas I will be presenting, I find that the Book of Mormon explains them with less ambiguity.

A prophet named Jacob taught his people about the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ and the universality of its effects upon the human family.

He explained that Christ "suffereth himself to become subject unto man in the flesh, and die for all men" because Mankind had been "cut off from the presence of the Lord" by reason of the Fall of Adam and Eve therefore, because of their transgression "death hath passed upon all men" and yet he taught that "to fulfil the merciful plan of the great Creator, there must needs be a power of resurrection". (2 Nephi 9:5-6)

Then he revealed,

"Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more.

O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more." (2 Nephi 9:7-8)

The idea that all people will one day "put on incorruption", or receive a bodily Resurrected, means that all people will eventually be saved from physical death and that their spirit will be reunited with their physical body. The Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ will cause all to rise from the dead.

Not only this, but Jacob taught that the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ will also save all Mankind from Hell. For he continued saying,

"O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit.

And because of the way of deliverance of our God, the Holy One of Israel, this death, of which I have spoken, which is the temporal, shall deliver up its dead; which death is the grave.

And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel." (2 Nephi 9:10-12)

Jacob talks about a lot of other good stuff and I will provide a link to this chapter, but I would encourage everyone to read and study from the Book of Mormon.

2 Nephi 9
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Scare tactics don't work on me as an adult. I find this common among Muslims, Jews, and Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons etc.....

Live your life right. Be kind to other humans. Don't kill, steal, cheat, or lie to advance yourself. Preserve life as best as you can. Be kind to animals and plants. If Jesus or any cosmic being is that petty to condemn you for a religion, an inanimate ideology, to an eternity of suffering despite your actions as a decent human being, they're not a beneficient as their doctrine proclaims them to be.
Mind sharing the "scare tactics" of "Mormons" (Latter-Day Saints)?

I am unaware of any.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It all depends on the context.
I gave the context: he was flashing it at the camera from the stands at an Olympic luge event.

Is the sign claiming that everyone needs to believe in and accept the teachings of the sign-bearers version of Jesus in order to avoid Hell?
I gave the exact wording of the sign.

Perhaps. But I initially saw it a bit differently.

I saw the sign saying that only through what Jesus has done for us can we receive endless joy, or entrance to Heaven and that if there were "no Jesus", all Mankind would be consigned to Hell, or endless misery.

Ignoring for a moment the belief that the pre-mortal Jesus Christ created the entire physical Universe (John 1), let's operate under the idea that we somehow existed without Him first creating all things, what would happen to all Mankind if Jesus had never entered into mortality and performed His Atoning Sacrifice?

I am a Latter-Day Saint (aka "Mormon") so I will be quoting from the Book of Mormon, even though the Bible supports the ideas I will be presenting, I find that the Book of Mormon explains them with less ambiguity.
Unless you're suggesting that Sign Guy was Mormon (and his reference to Hell suggests to me that he wasn't), I don't see how the Book of Mormon would be relevant to his intended message or goals.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Fire and Brimstone....The idea of guilt and/or being left out. Not to mention the curse black people are supposed to have because of Ham
Would you mind citing any references?

I am a member a Latter-Day Saint (Mormon) and I can tell you that we do not preach "fire and brimstone", at least as far as I understand it.

Also, as to the supposed "curse" upon black people, that was just an attempt by some leaders of the Church to explain the temporary Priesthood ban placed on a particular genealogy of African males.

The Priesthood ban happened, but the reason(s) for why it was implemented in the first place is unknown outside our belief that God commanded it.

We do not teach that black people are "cursed" in any negative way.
 
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Prestor John

Well-Known Member
I gave the context: he was flashing it at the camera from the stands at an Olympic luge event.


I gave the exact wording of the sign.


Unless you're suggesting that Sign Guy was Mormon (and his reference to Hell suggests to me that he wasn't), I don't see how the Book of Mormon would be relevant to his intended message or goals.
The simplicity of his sign could be interpreted one of two ways,

1.) Believe in and accept my version of Jesus or go to Hell, or

2.) The existence of Jesus gets us into Heaven and his nonexistence (wow, is that even a real word?) would consign us to Hell

The first is a proselytization and the second is a statement of belief.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Is there a positive way to be cursed? :D
That depends on how you look at it.

We know from the scriptures that certain people were "cursed" with both benign and negative things.

For example, the Lamanites in the Book of Mormon were "cursed" with dark skin as a means for the Nephites to differentiate them from their own people, which is not negative in any way.

Yet, along with that "curse" the Lamanites also were cursed with spiritual separation from the Lord.

Even though one is benign and the other negative, both are referred to as "cursings".
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Fire and Brimstone....The idea of guilt and/or being left out.
No such thing as fire and brimstone in Mormonism. I was raised LDS and there was never, ever, ever any discussion of anything remotely related to the idea of a Lake of Fire where the wicked would burn for eternity. Mormonism actually teaches that almost everyone who has ever lived will end up in Heaven. So much for being left out.

Not to mention the curse black people are supposed to have because of Ham
Well, you're about 40 years behind on your understanding of Mormonism. I'm not going to deny that there was a racist policy in place for a number of years, or even try to justify it by saying "Well, most Christian denominations back then believed Blacks were cursed." What's wrong is wrong. You can't turn back the clock, but for the last forty years, there has been no policy of racial exclusion in the LDS Church.

You have a thing to learn about Mormonism before you make any further inaccurate or misleading statements.
 
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