Prostitution Argument (continued from “Iceland to ban porn on the web because of children”)

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Speaking of Nevada it has been reported that the legal brothels operate under slave like conditions where their freedom of movement is restricted
'It's like you sign a contract to be raped'

 

[Revoltingest]

Could be government run.....

A government prostitution facility?
I imagine something like.....

 

[Skwim]

Um, how?

Much in the same way that the legal possession of handguns and semi-automatic weapons of war has been so abused as to negatively impact American society. I believe that with legalized prostitution the laws regulating it will be used to give the false impression that pimps will be more likely to treat their women fairly and humanely. In turn, I see this as enticing the more vulnerable women into such pimp/prostitution relationships, and giving johns the impression that they aren't contributing to the stereotypical pimp/prostitute exploitation that now exists---although as it is I doubt many really care. With the legalization of prostitution I see this relationship only getting worse.

 

[Me Myself]

Found this interesting:

http://myweb.dal.ca/mgoodyea/files/...Brents J Interpers Viol 2005 20(3) 270-95.pdf

 

[dust1n]

I would think someone with a background in management would be more suitable.

I'm sure we'd see plenty of experts in the adult sales industry gladly convert into a legal operation.

Depends on how you set it up. If they're government run then no, unless the government was selling it off to be used as something else.

Yep, the only difference is the regulation involved.

I've never heard of a government operated brothel before. Seeing how there has never been one, I can only speculate on the effects.

Generally, private brothels have yielded a continuation if not a flourishing of all the negative aspects of prostitution. I wish I could say it was different, as I don't want those negative things to flourish, obviously, but all the evidence I see points directly in that direction. Some European nations, like Germany, are considering reversing the legalization.

Being in the UK I have no idea how things are run in Nevada.

"81% of the women in the Nevada legal brothels prostitution urgently want to escape it." If that gives you an idea.

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/pdfs/Myths & Facts Legal & Illegal Prostitution 3-09.pdf

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Indeed. That's why I keep citing that certain studies have showed up the %89 of prostitutes interviewed found themselves wanting to leave prostitution but finding it impossible to do.

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/pdf/Prostitutionin9Countries.pdf

No victims here, the majority of women who are beaten and raped in the profession.

There isn't any transferable skills you can gain from prostitution which make it very difficult leave and find other means of making a living. Plus we have to take into consideration poverty/lack of opportunities and how prostition effects marginalised groups like the women of colour and transwomen.
Also as prostitution becomes more private and less on the street there aren't any witnesses in cases where prostitutes go missing or are attacked or murdered which often leads to cold cases, which means Johns can and do take advantage of the unlikelyhood of being caught.
It shouldn't be illegal to be a prostitute, in Sweden it's legal to be a prostitiute but illegal to be a John which means if a prostitute wanted to report an abuse than there's more chance of her being taken seriously because johns are criminals in the first place. I'm not too sure if this has helped reduce johns seeking out prostitutes and violence against prostitiutes though.

 

[dust1n]

No, I did not ignore it.

I took it for what it seemed like then and still seems like now: back peddling...

Even though I explicitly stated I could have worded what I said better to more accurately reflect what I meant, which I immediately clarified?

First of all, I said originally, "The legalization of prostitution in different forms has increased sex trafficking in every country I can find." Not the every county or specific brothel. It does take a reasonable sample size to draw any reasonable correlation. There is no accurate information regarding the effect of legal brothels in Nevada, because the rates of sex trafficking could be raising and lowing for a number of reasons unknown... population, new brothels opening and closing, increased law enforcement against sex trafficking, etc. It's unreasonable for me to draw conclusions from a tiny sample.

Second of all, what I said, or at least what I clearly reemphasized my meaning was, is true in regards to every country that has legalized prostitution on a country wide scale. Such a sample size gives a much clearer picture because one can examine on a large scale the tendencies before and after the changes. Not so with a few counties in Nevada.

Thirdly,

Described as "***** penitentiaries" by one interviewee, the brothels tend to be in the middle of nowhere, out of sight of ordinary Nevadans. (Brothels are officially allowed only in counties with populations of fewer than 400,000, so prostitution remains an illegal - though vast - trade in conurbations such as Las Vegas.) The brothel prostitutes often live in prison-like conditions, locked in or forbidden to leave.

"The physical appearance of these buildings is shocking," says Farley. "They look like wide trailers with barbed wire around them - little jails." The rooms all have panic buttons, but many women told her that they had experienced violent and sexual abuse from the customers and pimps.


"I saw a grated iron door in one brothel," says Farley. "The women's food was shoved through the door's steel bars between the kitchen and the brothel area. One pimp starved a woman he considered too fat. She made a friend outside the brothel who would throw food over the fence for her." Another pimp told Farley matter-of-factly that many of the women working for him had histories of sexual abuse and mental ill-health. "Most," he said, "have been sexually abused as kids. Some are bipolar, some are schizophrenic."


Then there is the fact that legal prostitutes seem to lose the rights ordinary citizens enjoy. From 1987, prostitutes in Nevada have been legally required to be tested once a week for sexually transmitted diseases and monthly for HIV. Customers are not required to be tested. The women must present their medical clearance to the police station and be finger-printed, even though such registration is detrimental: if a woman is known to work as a prostitute, she may be refused health insurance, face discrimination in housing or future employment, or endure accusations of unfit motherhood. In addition, there are countries that will not permit registered prostitutes to settle, so their movement is severely restricted.


Those who support the system claim that the regulations may help prevent pimping, which they see as a worse form of exploitation to that which occurs in brothels. According to Farley's research though, most women in legal brothels have pimps outside anyway, be they husbands or boyfriends. And, as Chong Kim, a survivor of prostitution who has worked with Farley, says, some of the legal brothel owners "are worse than any pimp. They abuse and imprison women and are fully protected by the state."


The women are expected to live in the brothels and to work 12- to 14-hour shifts. Mary, a prostitute in a legal brothel for three years, outlines the restrictions. "You are not allowed to have your own car," she notes. "It's like [the pimp's] own little police state." When a customer arrives, a bell rings, and the women immediately have to present themselves in a line-up, so he can choose who to buy.


Sheriffs in some counties of Nevada also enforce practices that are illegal. In one city, for example, prostitutes are not allowed to leave the brothel after 5pm, are not permitted in bars, and, if entering a restaurant, must use a back door and be accompanied by a man.

'It's like you sign a contract to be raped' | World news | The Guardian

Fourthly,

244,000 – Number of American children and youth estimated to be at risk of child sexual exploitation, including commercial sexual exploitation, in 2000.


Source: Estes, Richard J. and Neil A. Weiner. The Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children in the U.S., Canada, and Mexico. The University of Pennsylvania School of Social Work: 2001.

Study funded by the Department of Justice...

12-14 – Average age of entry into prostitution

o Source: Estes, Richard J. and Neil A. Weiner. The Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children in the U.S., Canada, and Mexico. The University of Pennsylvania School of Social Work: 2001.

Unfortunately, he follows with his next section, "Very little research has been done to determine the extent of human trafficking on the state level."

http://www.cicatelli.org/titlex/downloadable/Human%20Trafficking%20Statistics.pdf




In honesty, it's hard to grab accurate numbers even on a nation wide scale, as sex trafficking and globalization are mixing, so I wouldn't want to suggest that legal prostitution was the cause of all the increase. I just don't see the evidence in any of the countries that have implemented nationwide legalization and have prevented continuous growth. I think it's worth actually discussing, and I'd rather not have my arguments seemingly pigeonholed about a minute bad wording on my part, which I was willing to correct.

But hey, if this is going to result in you contributing to the discussion or leaving it alone as there are plenty of people I'll have to respond to, than, Yea man, I can't prove some correlation between a thousand or so people and the entire state of Nevada, or the entire country. Again, sorry I wasn't clearer in the OP as to a single sentence.

 

[dust1n]

enforce STI/background checks on the prostitutes and it gets paid for by the johns.

Also, how do you enforce STI checks. It certainly isn't going to help victims of sex trafficking or prostitutes, as they are obviously out the realm. And how do you test all the johns? Wouldn't there be like... hundreds of thousands a year in America. And these buildings. It sure takes a lot of governmental work and money to just make this happen. How long do you think it would be before actual reductions in trafficking occurs after legalization?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

And I suppose it's no surprise that I'm also a supporter.





We obviously agree that pimping and child trafficking are bad, so they are quite rightly outlawed. But why would you seek to curb prostitution? Morality is not defined by statistical correlation with negative events.

"Let's outlaw owning strippers and child trafficking and *insert some more bad prostitutions*"

"Nah dude, too lazy, let's just outlaw prostitution, who'd make use of it anyway?"

-a half billion people facepalm-

 

[McBell]

Even though I explicitly stated I could have worded what I said better to more accurately reflect what I meant, which I immediately clarified?

First of all, I said originally, "The legalization of prostitution in different forms has increased sex trafficking in every country I can find." Not the every county or specific brothel. It does take a reasonable sample size to draw any reasonable correlation. There is no accurate information regarding the effect of legal brothels in Nevada, because the rates of sex trafficking could be raising and lowing for a number of reasons unknown... population, new brothels opening and closing, increased law enforcement against sex trafficking, etc. It's unreasonable for me to draw conclusions from a tiny sample.

Second of all, what I said, or at least what I clearly reemphasized my meaning was, is true in regards to every country that has legalized prostitution on a country wide scale. Such a sample size gives a much clearer picture because one can examine on a large scale the tendencies before and after the changes. Not so with a few counties in Nevada.

My apologies.
I was a bit quick jumping the gun.

Thirdly,
'It's like you sign a contract to be raped' | World news | The Guardian

Yeah, Link wars!
Nevada's Legal Brothels Make Workers Feel Safer - Room for Debate - NYTimes.com

No offense, but since my link is based upon a 15 year study of the Nevada county in question....

Fourthly,

Unfortunately, he follows with his next section, "Very little research has been done to determine the extent of human trafficking on the state level."

http://www.cicatelli.org/titlex/downloadable/Human%20Trafficking%20Statistics.pdf

In honesty, it's hard to grab accurate numbers even on a nation wide scale, as sex trafficking and globalization are mixing, so I wouldn't want to suggest that legal prostitution was the cause of all the increase. I just don't see the evidence in any of the countries that have implemented nationwide legalization and have prevented continuous growth. I think it's worth actually discussing, and I'd rather not have my arguments seemingly pigeonholed about a minute bad wording on my part, which I was willing to correct.

But hey, if this is going to result in you contributing to the discussion or leaving it alone as there are plenty of people I'll have to respond to, than, Yea man, I can't prove some correlation between a thousand or so people and the entire state of Nevada, or the entire country. Again, sorry I wasn't clearer in the OP as to a single sentence.

I admit it wasn't entirely your fault for the misunderstanding on my part.
In fact, it was mostly if not entirely on myself.

 

[AdityaMookerjee]

A tangent from this thread.

Have at it!

The idea is, that professionally, people are supposed to be in a certain circumstance. People want to utilise currency, to the maximum advantage. How does one buy the body of another person, or hire it, and the govt. in France, for instance, set terms for the hiring or buying, when the person has sold his/her body, and has no obligation or say in the matter? Anyone can object, and a person who offers money can be arrested, if the money is offered for sex, if the objection remains. How can France, see this situation in legality? People don't know why they should consider, until they might be in a humiliating situation. I mean, what would a person feel, if he regarded the opposite sex, and was solicited for sex, by the opposite sex, persistently? Should he/she consider? India is a republic, because France was considered a republic earlier. How does France justify business nationally, and internationally, if the world is a market? In that sense, a deal in business is irrelevant, if there is no concord, after the agreement, and it seems, deals are renegotiated, after and over, and govt.'s don't mind, until a third party might object to the deal, if at all, and on any objection to the business deal, by anyone, practically.

 

[Me Myself]

Yeah, Link wars!
Nevada's Legal Brothels Make Workers Feel Safer - Room for Debate - NYTimes.com

No offense, but since my link is based upon a 15 year study of the Nevada county in question....

Pretty much.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ya know what I like about this thread?
All these "liberals" taking the conservative position of opposing prostitution comforts me.
I get to be more liberal than they are....hah!
(I never claimed to be above pettiness.)

 

[dust1n]

"Let's outlaw owning strippers and child trafficking and *insert some more bad prostitutions*"

"Nah dude, too lazy, let's just outlaw prostitution, who'd make use of it anyway?"

-a half billion people facepalm-

I think laziness would be attempting to make a point about in so few words, with so little effort, to actually add much. BTW, child trafficking and owning strippers is already illegal. All three of those things are already illegal.


Feel free to comment on any of my reasons I've provided to why prostitute should illegal but decriminalized... you know, if you're feeling up to it.. or whatever..

 

[dust1n]

My apologies.
I was a bit quick jumping the gun.

It's cool.

Yeah, Link wars!
Nevada's Legal Brothels Make Workers Feel Safer - Room for Debate - NYTimes.com

Heh. I'd be willing to admit that the ones in Nevada would be the least bad, I guess? I remember some links to some first-person accounts, but I'm about to head to bed. I'll look for them... I think I have them in an old thread somewhere.

Strangely enough I came across this on the NY Time debate earlier:

"As a teenager, I worked in Germany’s legal sex industry. I was, like many girls in the club, underage; most of us were immigrants, nearly all of us had histories of trauma and abuse prior to our entry into commercial sex. Several of us had pimps despite working in a legal establishment; all of us used copious amounts of drugs and alcohol to get through each night.



Violence is inherent in the sex industry. Numerous studies show that between 70 percent and 90 percent of children and women who end up in commercial sex were sexually abused prior to entry. No other industry is dependent upon a regular supply of victims of trauma and abuse.

Legalization has spurred traffickers to recruit children and marginalized women to meet demand.​

The presence of an adult sex industry increases both the rates of child sexual exploitation and trafficking. It may be true that some women in commercial sex exercised some level of informed choice, had other options to entering and have no histories of familial trauma, neglect or sexual abuse. But, these women are the minority and don’t represent the overwhelming majority of women, girls, boys and transgender youth, for whom the sex industry isn’t about choice but lack of choice."

Legalizing Prostitution Leads to More Trafficking - Room for Debate - NYTimes.com

I'll look for some more this weekend.

No offense, but since my link is based upon a 15 year study of the Nevada county in question....


I admit it wasn't entirely your fault for the misunderstanding on my part.
In fact, it was mostly if not entirely on myself.

Its cool. I'll respond to this point sometime soon.

 

[dust1n]

Ya know what I like about this thread?
All these "liberals" taking the conservative position of opposing prostitution comforts me.
I get to be more liberal than they are....hah!
(I never claimed to be above pettiness.)

Oh no, the money talks all parties.

Daily Kos: Nevada Republicans strongly back prostitution

 

[dust1n]

There isn't any transferable skills you can gain from prostitution which make it very difficult leave and find other means of making a living. Plus we have to take into consideration poverty/lack of opportunities and how prostition effects marginalised groups like the women of colour and transwomen.
Also as prostitution becomes more private and less on the street there aren't any witnesses in cases where prostitutes go missing or are attacked or murdered which often leads to cold cases, which means Johns can and do take advantage of the unlikelyhood of being caught.

It shouldn't be illegal to be a prostitute, in Sweden it's legal to be a prostitiute but illegal to be a John which means if a prostitute wanted to report an abuse than there's more chance of her being taken seriously because johns are criminals in the first place. I'm not too sure if this has helped reduce johns seeking out prostitutes and violence against prostitiutes though.

There are many considerations about women in prostitution that people are forgetting. The latent drug abuse, inability to leave the profession, and in legal instances, contract that bind women to servitude.

 

[Me Myself]

There are many considerations about women in prostitution that people are forgetting. The latent drug abuse, inability to leave the profession, and in legal instances, contract that bind women to servitude.

Iability to leave the proffesion and contradts to servitude? In which ways different than other professions? I am not sure what you mean.

The drug abuse has nothing to do with prostitution. People may drug abuse and they might be prostitutes. Regardless, it is still very separated.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Iability to leave the proffesion and contradts to servitude? In which ways different than other professions? I am not sure what you mean.

The drug abuse has nothing to do with prostitution. People may drug abuse and they might be prostitutes. Regardless, it is still very separated.

If you read the experiences of prostitutes regarding drug use many say drug use helped them to separate their mind from their body and to cope with performing for Johns. Many people take drugs for many different reasons, but I doubt they do it because they want to to be numb to cashing up a till, filling out spread sheets, meeting with clients etc. Do you think johns actually want those women's lives to get better? Do you think they actually care? I personally think they get thrills over the power they have with their money.

 

[crossfire]

From what I'm gathering from the information presented here is that the demand for sex for money far exceeds the willing suppliers of sex for money. One way to cut down on the demand is by making it illegal. (This speaks volumes about human nature to me.)