Protestants don't know their Bible!

[metis]

Jesus pointed out to his disciples that human forms of government are always oppressive:

We're not talking about a human form of government.

When it comes to leadership models within the Abrahamic religions, there's two: "authoritarian" and "congregational". With the latter, it is the congregation itself that sets the standards to be followed and taught. Of those two, the church of the Apostles was clearly the former, and there is no 3rd option unless one chooses no leadership.

However, there are some Christian denominations that combine the two such as what you'll find in some of the Lutheran synods.

 

[Five Solas]

We're not talking about a human form of government.

When it comes to leadership models within the Abrahamic religions, there's two: "authoritarian" and "congregational". With the latter, it is the congregation itself that sets the standards to be followed and taught. Of those two, the church of the Apostles was clearly the former, and there is no 3rd option unless one chooses no leadership.

However, there are some Christian denominations that combine the two such as what you'll find in some of the Lutheran synods.

Jesus mentioned human governments as an example. So, it is very relevant for this discussion.

You fail to mention Presbyterian/Reformed church leadership. It is a prime example of equality and service. At all times the elder is for the service of the congregation, to pray for them, and to encourage them in the faith.

 

[metis]

Jesus mentioned human governments as an example. So, it is very relevant for this discussion.

You fail to mention Presbyterian/Reformed church leadership. It is a prime example of equality and service. At all times the elder is for the service of the congregation, to pray for them, and to encourage them in the faith.

And your denomination aslso uses the authoritarian model:

Councils
The Presbyterian Church (USA) has a representative form of government, known as presbyterian polity, with four levels of government and administration, as outlined in the Book of Order. The councils (governing bodies) are as follows:

1. Session (of a Congregation)
2. Presbytery
3. Synod
4. General Assembly -- Presbyterian Church (USA) - Wikipedia

 

[Five Solas]

And your denomination aslso uses the authoritarian model:

Councils
The Presbyterian Church (USA) has a representative form of government, known as presbyterian polity, with four levels of government and administration, as outlined in the Book of Order. The councils (governing bodies) are as follows:

1. Session (of a Congregation)
2. Presbytery
3. Synod
4. General Assembly -- Presbyterian Church (USA) - Wikipedia

I do not think you understand the difference between being organized, authoritarian, and a hierarchy. When a church is organised locally as well as nationally it does not imply a hierarchy.
When the synod gathers they choose one of the elders to be chairman and it is a different person every time. When the meeting is over he's just a normal person/member again. No special office.
No single person has more authority or is more important than any other person.
We have different jobs, duties, and responsibilities though.

 

[metis]

I do not think you understand the difference between being organized, authoritarian, and a hierarchy. When a church is organised locally as well as nationally it does not imply a hierarchy.
When the synod gathers they choose one of the elders to be chairman and it is a different person every time. When the meeting is over he's just a normal person/member again. No special office.
No single person has more authority or is more important than any other person.
We have different jobs, duties, and responsibilities though.

Simply put, I very much know what I'm talking about but you don't as you keep relating it to secular "authoritarian. "Authoritarian" in the theological context has already been explained to you, and your denomination clearly uses it. It says in the scriptures that Jesus taught with authority as did the Apostles, so this is not that complicated to understand.

Unless you have a serious question to ask, I'm done.

 

[paradox]

What or who is this “holly spirit” you have referred to more than once in your posts? Is it similar to the “holy spirit” mentioned by other posters on the forum?

There is only one holly spirit, I don't know what others say about holly spirit but I'm sure we all talk about one and same holly spirit.
In OT, or Torah holly spirit is called "the spirit of Jahweh". but this is one and same spirit, God.

 

[paradox]

If a man says to follow some tradition that the Bible says we should not follow, then that man is not following the Bible.

The bible says to follow tradition, you go figure where and how does it say that.

 

[Five Solas]

Simply put, I very much know what I'm talking about but you don't as you keep relating it to secular "authoritarian. "Authoritarian" in the theological context has already been explained to you, and your denomination clearly uses it. It says in the scriptures that Jesus taught with authority as did the Apostles, so this is not that complicated to understand.

Unless you have a serious question to ask, I'm done.

Oh, I understand very well.
You asked the questions, not me.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The bible says to follow tradition, you go figure where and how does it say that.

I guess you have a different Bible because mine says do NOT follow the traditions of men. And I am not just talking about traditions. If a man says to do ANYTHING that the Bible says do not do then that man is not following God. If you want to do what he tells you then that is your choice but do not think you are following what God wants.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I guess you have a different Bible because mine says do NOT follow the traditions of men.

Dueteronomy 17:8-13

ח כִּי יִפָּלֵא מִמְּךָ דָבָר לַמִּשְׁפָּט, בֵּין-דָּם לְדָם בֵּין-דִּין לְדִין וּבֵין נֶגַע לָנֶגַע--דִּבְרֵי רִיבֹת, בִּשְׁעָרֶיךָ: וְקַמְתָּ וְעָלִיתָ--אֶל-הַמָּקוֹם, אֲשֶׁר יִבְחַר יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ בּוֹ. 8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, even matters of controversy within thy gates; then shalt thou arise, and get thee up unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose.
ט וּבָאתָ, אֶל-הַכֹּהֲנִים הַלְוִיִּם, וְאֶל-הַשֹּׁפֵט, אֲשֶׁר יִהְיֶה בַּיָּמִים הָהֵם; וְדָרַשְׁתָּ וְהִגִּידוּ לְךָ, אֵת דְּבַר הַמִּשְׁפָּט. 9 And thou shall come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days; and thou shalt inquire; and they shall declare unto thee the sentence of judgment.
י וְעָשִׂיתָ, עַל-פִּי הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר יַגִּידוּ לְךָ, מִן-הַמָּקוֹם הַהוּא, אֲשֶׁר יִבְחַר יְהוָה; וְשָׁמַרְתָּ לַעֲשׂוֹת, כְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר יוֹרוּךָ. 10 And thou shalt do according to the tenor of the sentence, which they shall declare unto thee from that place which the LORD shall choose; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they shall teach thee.
יא עַל-פִּי הַתּוֹרָה אֲשֶׁר יוֹרוּךָ, וְעַל-הַמִּשְׁפָּט אֲשֶׁר-יֹאמְרוּ לְךָ--תַּעֲשֶׂה: לֹא תָסוּר, מִן-הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר-יַגִּידוּ לְךָ--יָמִין וּשְׂמֹאל. 11 According to the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare unto thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
יב וְהָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר-יַעֲשֶׂה בְזָדוֹן, לְבִלְתִּי שְׁמֹעַ אֶל-הַכֹּהֵן הָעֹמֵד לְשָׁרֶת שָׁם אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, אוֹ, אֶל-הַשֹּׁפֵט--וּמֵת הָאִישׁ הַהוּא, וּבִעַרְתָּ הָרָע מִיִּשְׂרָאֵל. 12 And the man that doeth presumptuously, in not hearkening unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die; and thou shalt exterminate the evil from Israel.
יג וְכָל-הָעָם, יִשְׁמְעוּ וְיִרָאוּ; וְלֹא יְזִידוּן, עוֹד. {ס} 13 And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously. {S}

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Dueteronomy 17:8-13

ח כִּי יִפָּלֵא מִמְּךָ דָבָר לַמִּשְׁפָּט, בֵּין-דָּם לְדָם בֵּין-דִּין לְדִין וּבֵין נֶגַע לָנֶגַע--דִּבְרֵי רִיבֹת, בִּשְׁעָרֶיךָ: וְקַמְתָּ וְעָלִיתָ--אֶל-הַמָּקוֹם, אֲשֶׁר יִבְחַר יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ בּוֹ. 8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, even matters of controversy within thy gates; then shalt thou arise, and get thee up unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose.
ט וּבָאתָ, אֶל-הַכֹּהֲנִים הַלְוִיִּם, וְאֶל-הַשֹּׁפֵט, אֲשֶׁר יִהְיֶה בַּיָּמִים הָהֵם; וְדָרַשְׁתָּ וְהִגִּידוּ לְךָ, אֵת דְּבַר הַמִּשְׁפָּט. 9 And thou shall come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days; and thou shalt inquire; and they shall declare unto thee the sentence of judgment.
י וְעָשִׂיתָ, עַל-פִּי הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר יַגִּידוּ לְךָ, מִן-הַמָּקוֹם הַהוּא, אֲשֶׁר יִבְחַר יְהוָה; וְשָׁמַרְתָּ לַעֲשׂוֹת, כְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר יוֹרוּךָ. 10 And thou shalt do according to the tenor of the sentence, which they shall declare unto thee from that place which the LORD shall choose; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they shall teach thee.
יא עַל-פִּי הַתּוֹרָה אֲשֶׁר יוֹרוּךָ, וְעַל-הַמִּשְׁפָּט אֲשֶׁר-יֹאמְרוּ לְךָ--תַּעֲשֶׂה: לֹא תָסוּר, מִן-הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר-יַגִּידוּ לְךָ--יָמִין וּשְׂמֹאל. 11 According to the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare unto thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
יב וְהָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר-יַעֲשֶׂה בְזָדוֹן, לְבִלְתִּי שְׁמֹעַ אֶל-הַכֹּהֵן הָעֹמֵד לְשָׁרֶת שָׁם אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, אוֹ, אֶל-הַשֹּׁפֵט--וּמֵת הָאִישׁ הַהוּא, וּבִעַרְתָּ הָרָע מִיִּשְׂרָאֵל. 12 And the man that doeth presumptuously, in not hearkening unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die; and thou shalt exterminate the evil from Israel.
יג וְכָל-הָעָם, יִשְׁמְעוּ וְיִרָאוּ; וְלֹא יְזִידוּן, עוֹד. {ס} 13 And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously. {S}

Thank you but I do not see what this has to do with traditions.

 

[metis]

I guess you have a different Bible because mine says do NOT follow the traditions of men. And I am not just talking about traditions. If a man says to do ANYTHING that the Bible says do not do then that man is not following God

Here are the citations that mention "tradition(s)" in the NT: Bible, Revised Standard Version (umich.edu)

Also, please note that like God told Moses, Jesus told the Apostles that they could make decision of "binding & loosening of sins", for example, but also that the Paraclete [HS] would help guide the Church.

The Church has not been nor ever will be a static entity as it must periodically make adjustments do to changes in conditions.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Thank you but I do not see what this has to do with traditions.

It gives certain men (Levites and judges) the God given authority to interpret the law, aka traditions. This makes it possible for us to actually observe the 613.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

It gives certain men (Levites and judges) the God given authority to interpret the law, aka traditions. This makes it possible for us to actually observe the 613.

Please let me give an honest reply. You list your religion as Judaism. So suppose you go to church one day and your Rabbi says he has carefully thought about it and he can see no reason why people should not eat pork. He has thr authority to make decisions for the congregation so he is going to allow his members to eat pork. God said do not eat pork. This man says it is OK to eat pork. Who would you follow? God or man? There is a verse in the Bible where God says He never changes. So would you follow God's never changing rule or a man's interpretation of that rule? Yes, man has the right to judge and interpret. But if that judgement or interpretation is completely opposite what God says then I believe one should follow God and not man.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Here are the citations that mention "tradition(s)" in the NT: Bible, Revised Standard Version (umich.edu)

Also, please note that like God told Moses, Jesus told the Apostles that they could make decision of "binding & loosening of sins", for example, but also that the Paraclete [HS] would help guide the Church.

The Church has not been nor ever will be a static entity as it must periodically make adjustments do to changes in conditions.

Please see my post # 134. I am not saying all traditions are wrong. But if a tradition says to do something that God says to not do, then we should follow God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Please let me give an honest reply. You list your religion as Judaism. So suppose you go to church one day and your Rabbi says he has carefully thought about it and he can see no reason why people should not eat pork. He has thr authority to make decisions for the congregation so he is going to allow his members to eat pork. God said do not eat pork. This man says it is OK to eat pork. Who would you follow? God or man? There is a verse in the Bible where God says He never changes. So would you follow God's never changing rule or a man's interpretation of that rule? Yes, man has the right to judge and interpret. But if that judgement or interpretation is completely opposite what God says then I believe one should follow God and not man.

One rabbi alone never had the authority to make Oral Torah. Judaism was always based on beit din (roughly, tribunals) and the supreme court of all being the Sanhedrin.

Additionally, the whole purpose of Oral Torah is to make it possible for us to observe the Torah's 613 laws.

Can you come up with an example of where you think Oral Torah teaches to do other than obey the 613 laws?

BTW, I noticed you said I go to church. Jews go to synagogue, not church. Just a wee little thing.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

One rabbi alone never had the authority to make Oral Torah. Judaism was always based on beit din (roughly, tribunals) and the supreme court of all being the Sanhedrin.

Additionally, the whole purpose of Oral Torah is to make it possible for us to observe the Torah's 613 laws.

Can you come up with an example of where you think Oral Torah teaches to do other than obey the 613 laws?

BTW, I noticed you said I go to church. Jews go to synagogue, not church. Just a wee little thing.

Thank you for your explanation and I apologize for any offense about church / synagogue.

 

[metis]

Please see my post # 134. I am not saying all traditions are wrong. But if a tradition says to do something that God says to not do, then we should follow God.

Thanks for the clarification and I agree with you.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Thanks for the clarification and I agree with you.

Thanks Metis I always knew you were an intelligent person.

 

[metis]

Thanks Metis I always knew you were an intelligent person.

Ah, but you obviously are such a poor judge of character.