Protestants don't know their Bible!

[Muffled]

It might be more appropriate to refer to the Roman church - or the church of Rome.

The true church, consisting of all who believe (with living faith), had always been 'catholic' meaning the church is one, undivided Christian church with historical continuity from when the first church started.

To say someone is Catholic is actually a misnomer. The true church (the community of faithful believers) is catholic, a person is not catholic.

Church membership does not equate to salvation. Membership in the Roman Catholic church (or any other denomination) is not a passport to heaven - salvation is by faith alone. In other words, only those declared righteous by God because of their faith are part of the one and only church.

I was watching an episode of Medici on Netflix and the Pope ordered his priests in Florence to not baptize babies which was a consternation because any unbaptized babies would go to Hell. That is so unbiblical that it would be laughable if it were not so much a cause of distress.

 

[Muffled]

So, just to be clear, are you claiming that the Church established by Jesus and the Twelve was not an organization?

I believe they established several churches. I see no evidence that they established only one church.

 

[Muffled]

rosary dates back to year 1221 as is part of Christian tradition.

Traditions are not inventions, traditions exist since early Christians.
The bible nowhere says bible only, tradition in all it's flavors is work of the holly spirit, not "invention".

How does one authenticate a tradition as coming from the Holy Spirit? Some person may say one should stand on his head and say that was from the Holy Spirit but that does not make it true.

 

[paradox]

How does one authenticate a tradition as coming from the Holy Spirit? Some person may say one should stand on his head and say that was from the Holy Spirit but that does not make it true.

Tradition just like visions to be recognized as coming from holly spirit must be officially confirmed by the church.

Problem is that there are rebel churches and sects that reject all traditions because the bible does mention any tradition explicitly.

 

[metis]

I believe they established several churches. I see no evidence that they established only one church.

Then you disagree with both Jesus and Paul, as the former said he'd send the Paraclete to the Church and Paul referred to the Church as being "one body".

 

[Truth in love]

It is true, Catholics are notorious for not knowing Scripture well. But having spent time at monasteries, where you go to daily Mass, and hear more Scripture read to you over a period of 6 months than attending Protestant services for years, and getting to know Catholics who actually know their Bible, it is remarkable.
This is a debate. Please debate something I said. Show me that I am wrong, mistaken, and that some Protestants know their Bible better than I do.

Luther had about 95 gripes. I'm not going to dig them all up. However I would ask a few questions.

1. Where the Savior or an apostle directed us to pray to Mary or other persons, but God?

2. Isa 24 warns "5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the cordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." Given such a strong warning why was baptism changed?

3. Given that Baptism for the dead is taught in the Bible and was practiced in the church at Paul's time why did Catholics label it a heresy?

 

[paradox]

1. Where the Savior or an apostle directed us to pray to Mary or other persons, but God?

First and foremost, nobody "prays" to saints or Mary, this would be adultery, instead we ask them to pray God for us, that is, to be mediators for our prayers.

But the Bible tell us that we have but one Mediator between God and man and that is "Christ Jesus" 1 Timothy 2:5
That’s true, but if this prohibits the intercession of the saints in heaven it also prohibits the intercession of the saints on earth. And we know that isn’t true: see 1 Timothy 2:1-6

So, Paul begins by asking us to pray (mediate) for all men.
He then says that it is good and acceptable to God because He desires all men to be saved.
Paul sees intercessory prayer as a way to bring men to Christ and ultimately to salvation.

It is clear that the Bible encourages intercessory prayer. The only question left is whether or not the saints in heaven can intercede for us? Scripture indicates they can.
We know that James 5:16

the prayer of a righteous person has great power

We know that they care for us, Luke 15:7

There will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents

You might disagree with the Catholic position on this. But you must admit that Catholics do not equate Mary and the saints with God. To say otherwise would be to "bear false witness against your neighbor" Exodus 20:16.

Given that Baptism for the dead is taught in the Bible and was practiced in the church at Paul's time why did Catholics label it a heresy?

baptism for the dead is occult practice, hence why Paul doesn't go beyond just mentioning it in epistles. knowledge of occult is irrelevant for salvation and is therefore the reason why such things are not recorded in the bible.
The only exception to this, knowledge or confirmation of magic and it's works I know of is the witch of En dor.

 

[Truth in love]

First and foremost, nobody "prays" to saints or Mary, this would be adultery, instead we ask them to pray God for us, that is, to be mediators for our prayers.

But the Bible tell us that we have but one Mediator between God and man and that is "Christ Jesus" 1 Timothy 2:5
That’s true, but if this prohibits the intercession of the saints in heaven it also prohibits the intercession of the saints on earth. And we know that isn’t true: see 1 Timothy 2:1-6

So, Paul begins by asking us to pray (mediate) for all men.
He then says that it is good and acceptable to God because He desires all men to be saved.
Paul sees intercessory prayer as a way to bring men to Christ and ultimately to salvation.

It is clear that the Bible encourages intercessory prayer. The only question left is whether or not the saints in heaven can intercede for us? Scripture indicates they can.
We know that James 5:16


We know that they care for us, Luke 15:7


You might disagree with the Catholic position on this. But you must admit that Catholics do not equate Mary and the saints with God. To say otherwise would be to "bear false witness against your neighbor" Exodus 20:16.


baptism for the dead is occult practice, hence why Paul doesn't go beyond just mentioning it in epistles. knowledge of occult is irrelevant for salvation and is therefore the reason why such things are not recorded in the bible.
The only exception to this, knowledge or confirmation of magic and it's works I know of is the witch of En dor.

I’ve known many Catholics over the years they pray to Mary. Maybe they should not but that is the practice.


I don’t know that you have read what Paul actually wrote. He used the practice to clarify a doctrine that the people had confused. It’s not occult it it Christian and was done.

 

[paradox]

I’ve known many Catholics over the years they pray to Mary. Maybe they should not but that is the practice.

Very odd because I never met such Catholic which prays to Mary, and I met more of them than you.

I don’t know that you have read what Paul actually wrote. He used the practice to clarify a doctrine that the people had confused. It’s not occult it it Christian and was done.

As I said:

You might disagree with the Catholic position on this. But you must admit that Catholics do not equate Mary and the saints with God. To say otherwise would be to "bear false witness against your neighbor" Exodus 20:16.

 

[Truth in love]

Very odd because I never met such Catholic which prays to Mary, and I met more of them than you.


As I said:

Well if you can’t answer and question and have a agree with me or your a liar mentality there not much point in talking.

 

[metis]

1. Where the Savior or an apostle directed us to pray to Mary or other persons, but God?

Technically, we can pray through Mary as part of the "communion of saints" that's mentioned in the Apostle's Creed and was done in the early Church. Much like I can pray for you and you for me, those within the Kingdom, whether alive or deceased, can pray for each other.

2. Isa 24 warns "5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the cordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." Given such a strong warning why was baptism changed?

Because of the plagues, Baptism was divided into two sacraments: Baptism and Confirmation. Jesus gave such power to the Apostles and the Apostles to their appointees.

3. Given that Baptism for the dead is taught in the Bible and was practiced in the church at Paul's time why did Catholics label it a heresy?

Because the dead cannot make any decisions that would affect their salvation or condemnation.

 

[Truth in love]

Technically, we can pray through Mary as part of the "communion of saints" that's mentioned in the Apostle's Creed and was done in the early Church. Much like I can pray for you and you for me, those within the Kingdom, whether alive or deceased, can pray for each other.

Because of the plagues, Baptism was divided into two sacraments: Baptism and Confirmation. Jesus gave such power to the Apostles and the Apostles to their appointees.

Because the dead cannot make any decisions that would affect their salvation or condemnation.

I find no Biblical recored for making baptism a small sprinkle of water. Praying through Mary seems to bypass the Savior who in the go between. Some why in the world did Paul cite the practice an the early church practice this if it is wrong?

 

[metis]

I find no Biblical recored for making baptism a small sprinkle of water.

So, the depth of the water matters? Tell me, exactly how many feet or inches must the water level be? IMO, you've slipped into "ritualism", thus missing the intent.

Praying through Mary seems to bypass the Savior who in the go between.

No, we don't bypass Jesus as we ask Mary to pray to Jesus and God for us. IOW, the saints that are deceased cannot operate without Jesus'/God's permission.

Some why in the world did Paul cite the practice an the early church practice this if it is wrong?

Which practice?

 

[Truth in love]

So, the depth of the water matters? Tell me, exactly how many feet or inches must the water level be? IMO, you've slipped into "ritualism", thus missing the intent.

No, we don't bypass Jesus as we ask Mary to pray to Jesus and God for us. IOW, the saints that are deceased cannot operate without Jesus'/God's permission.

Which practice?

It's not ritualism. Its what the thing is. The Bible is very clear on this baptism involves being immersed. The Catholic Church changed it.


Baptism for the dead. The church did it. Paul cited it yet a great many Christian deny and insult it.

 

[metis]

It's not ritualism. Its what the thing is. The Bible is very clear on this baptism involves being immersed. The Catholic Church changed it.

The word "baptism" is from both the Greek and Latin, and it means "washed" or "dripping", thus the depth of the water is not what's important. See: Baptism - Wikipedia

BTW, if changes are supposedly forbidden, iyo, then maybe pass your Bible on to someone else because it's this same Church that selected the scriptures that's in it in the 4th century, as it didn't choose itself. It took over 1/2 a century, roughly 1000 bishops, and it was often quite contentious with the debates.

 

[Truth in love]

The word "baptism" is from both the Greek and Latin, and it means "washed" or "dripping", thus the depth of the water is not what's important. See: Baptism - Wikipedia

BTW, if changes are supposedly forbidden, iyo, then maybe pass your Bible on to someone else because it's this same Church that selected the scriptures that's in it in the 4th century, as it didn't choose itself. It took over 1/2 a century, roughly 1000 bishops, and it was often quite contentious with the debates.

Immersion kind of a big deal.

 

[metis]

Immersion kind of a big deal.

Then do it, but then maybe don't be so arrogant and condescending so as to tell others that what they do is wrong. That is not "love", and Paul warned us about those who "cause division" within the flock.

Unless you have something more humble to say, this conversation just came to an end.

 

[pearl]

Catholics may choose baptism by immersion.

Baptism, Catholic, Immersion - YouTube

 

[metis]

Catholics may choose baptism by immersion.

Baptism, Catholic, Immersion - YouTube

Thanks, as I did forget to post that.