Prove or Disprove Flat Earth Theology

[Wandering Monk]

One more nutter to add to my iggy list.

 

[Ouroboros]

I just explained earlier how if the Earth is spinning... 1,037.5646 miles per hour
How Fast Does the Earth Rotate on Its Axis and Orbit the Sun?
while also traveling 66,660 miles per hour around the Sun, it should be possible for is to notice it. But sure, let's go with the theory that somehow humans have acclimated, much like a person on Everest to the thin air, or a man who does roofing for a living.

There's a difference between velocity and acceleration. You can feel changes in velocity and acceleration/deceleration, but you don't feel inertia. With that said, Earth's velocity does change through space, but compared to the strength of gravity, it's too small to notice for human balance sense.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I have extracted pictures from Pinterest that may be of interest.

1. A domed flat Earth with closed (frozen) edge like this can hold water. I want you all for homework to inflate a globe-print beach ball, and try to get the ball to hold water. And tell me how it went.

(Yeah, it's easy to write me off as a troll, but I figured out that a sphere doesn't hold water, and you're still struggling with this)

Let's suppose for a second that the reason water doesn't fall off into outer space with a rounded surface, constant spinning, and everything else is that gravity magically holds everything in place. Two new questions must be asked: (1) why do we feel a breeze of 25 mph and in fact get knocked off the ground at above like 90 mph yet feel absolutely nothing of this extremely fast spin? And don't tell me biological adaptation, bookcases also stay put while the substantially lower force of an earthquake knocks them clean over. My mom gets motion sick easily. She should be in constant agony. (2) If gravity is such a strong force that it hold the sky and the clouds in place without a firmament, and also hold water from rising out of the sea, why then is it really very easy to overcome gravity with magnetism? I was at a rock museum, and those magnetite or hemitite or whatever stones, I managed to stack about 15 or so to each other and to a metal table for several minutes straight. Upside down.

These things, btw can both be explained by air bouyancy and density without invoking gravity. A feather flies when air pushes it because it is only slightly more dense than air and can override it. The same for metal with enough magnetism. A bookcase, is much heavier and generally will not lift. Water stays in place because it is contained, and we do not feel anything because the Earth is not rotating. Originally, all religions believed this, not only "backward" Muslims still challenge it. Everyone else is brainwashed to the point of not even understand their own cognitive dissonance.

2. Two areas on opposite eastern/western and norther/southern hemispheres at the same time (given time zones), should not both be able to see the moon. One should be full and the other new, if in fact they are on opposite hemispheres. However, they took this shot on the same night and...

(For that matter, in a round Earth, the eastern and western hemisphere ought to matter nearly as much as the southern and northern. However, northern and southern are seasonally inverted and have different constellations, as I found out when in South Africa their cold months were in the US summer. There however is no discernible difference between east and west)

3. Yeah, uhhh gravity isn't magic. Also, you've been brainwashed.

4. How do compasses work? And how do sundials work?

5. And lastly, this curvature of the Earth thing is just stupid. See below.

Lemme ask you something. You know those laser pointer things? You expect them to be level, and not curve. Enough so that people actually use them to build houses. If you point them in any direction, a curve would begin to show, that is, if there were one to be had. If all light curved with the curve of the Earth, you would not be able to trust a simple flashlight to light your way on a flat hill. It would constantly be curving in an odd line. Yet, if we are expected to believe that somehow a light that very clearly shines in a straight line is straight enough to measure angles for building but is somehow curving, yeah...

The atmosphere is domed, yes. We can figure this one out fairly easily with angles. But all of these things show issues with the surface also being rounded.

On last thing. Here is the Richmond Science Museum. This globe is intended to "prove" the earth is round, by pushing water up it. But you notice what's happening on the bottom? I think since then, they've got it to rotate more vertically. It still drips off. Round Earth... doesn't hold water. (I'm gonna chuckle at that terrible pun all night, btw)

Yeah, about those laser pointer things ...

You should go watch the Netflix documentary called "Behind the Curve" where you'll see flat earth conspiracy theorists falsify their own hypothesis, with a simple laser pointer experiment.
Then they just say "uh, that's interesting" and sweep it under the rug.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Should I put "science" in scare quotes?

I just explained earlier how if the Earth is spinning... 1,037.5646 miles per hour
How Fast Does the Earth Rotate on Its Axis and Orbit the Sun?
while also traveling 66,660 miles per hour around the Sun, it should be possible for is to notice it. But sure, let's go with the theory that somehow humans have acclimated, much like a person on Everest to the thin air, or a man who does roofing for a living.

This does not account for inanimate objects. Which by all rights should be flopping all over the place. But somehow gravity not only equals a magical force that lets people hang upside-down (which totally means we ought to be able to climb stairs Escher-style) but also halts all movement that humans should be able to feel, because we're assuming it is divided by the size of the Earth. For the record, I have thought about how this would work.

Lemme ask you something. Do you trust completely these "carefully recorded scientific findings"? Because I personally found myself underprepared for a Horticulture science fair. I discovered that I had forgot to actually measure many (okay, all) of the growth recordings, having just mainly compared the growth rate of one batch to another. Looking around at the other students, I quickly drew a chart, and faked my way through. After that, I have never trusted so-called scientific results blindly but always asked, "Is there an agenda here?" For instance, a climate change study could be used by politicians to justify some new tax to make our lives miserable. I think I'll ignore that study, thank you. Especially, when those same politicians use 32x the amount of carbon as the average household (*ahem* Al Gore).

My grandpa worked for military designing planes, then switched to Hamilton Standard (where he kinda designed toilets). They got subcontracted by NASA to design the suits. Personally, it's irrelevant to me whether outer space exists. It could exist, and it would be fascinating to go other places. And the idea of a flat Earth with a firmament is not mutually exclusive, but I think I personally do believe in a holographic universe. Let me explain something though...

Aerodynamics. A rocket, is designed suspiciously like the vehicle in Le Voyage Dans La Lune, almost bullet shaped. In a rounded, constantly moving Earth, as it rotates, it will (A) flip the thing upside down or to the side resulting in a crash landing, (B) the moving Earth, regardless of speed cannot catch up the the Earth, and this is before thing supposedly slows to orbit and lands in the bell-shaped pod, or (C) collide with the shuttle and have the speed and size difference splatter the pod.

An average rocket goes about 17000 mph in order to leave the orbit. Hmmm, Earth goes 66k mph. Let's take out a few zeroes, and revert the size and speed differential to human terms. A horse goes maybe 17 mph, and a bus filled with people goes about 60 mph. Only the "bus" in question is significantly larger than the "horse" (3,958.8 mi radius vs size of a shuttle, closer to the difference between a 18-wheel truck and a fly). I can't just see them asking for volunteers. "When you go up, you're gonna have to go 17000 mph, but the Earth will be spinning crosswise at 1000 mph, harsher than any wind on Earth and will probably knock you completely upside-down. You won't be able to react in time and will probably head-on collide with land. When you re-enter, you might get hit by the Earth itself, and you'll die instantly. Now raise your hand if you want to go into outer space!" All hands go down. Or... "To leave the atmosphere, you just have to make a mild ascent, so you need to turn a straight-up motion into a gentler angled ascent, so you won't burn up from going too fast. To make reentry, you need to reenter at the right angle, too steep and you against burn up, too shallow and you wind up missing the Earth." Says virtually every movie ever.

A curved object like a flying saucer, would have multiple rotation points, averting A (but not necessarily B or C). It gets turned aside by the rotation but continues to land, using its aerodynamic curved design to rotate in a smooth orbit, but it still runs afoul of the other two. On the other hand, if the object in question is a fixed flat plane that only has to worry about precise entry and exit, most of what we hear about in space flight stories and movies suddenly makes perfect sense. Entry and exit is difficult because you burn up or leave orbit, but you aren't trying to hit a large moving object (which zero movies mention, probably because it isn't a thing). Yet, for a fixed object with a dome atmosphere, a pointed nose makes perfect sense.
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You know, all of you are like "Hahaha, you're so stupid (so is practically the entire internet and most classrooms, the latter which tell people absurd things like that Flat Earthers all believe there were dragons or that you'd fall off the edge)." But not one of you has explained any science, you're just parroting teachers, representatives of NASA, and other "experts" who know.

Argument from authority - Wikipedia

You're also using consensus rather than figuring out why it could or souldn't be the case.

Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

Authority fallacy plus consensus fallacy. Yup, someone famous said it, so I'm gonna trust them. And everyone agrees so it must be true. Despite the fact that your own senses all say otherwise (if you are standing on shore, and a boat passes by, you can generally tell the difference between moving by something at great speed, and having it move by you, to say nothing of motion feeling). So let's ask, how can we tell something else is moving and not us? Get into a car and look out the window, you see everything moving behind you. On the other hand, a car rushing past while you sit on a chair is moving past, and is the only only thing moving past. Simple. So, when we look in the sky, if we are going enormous distances every second, the sun as a fixed object should appear to be a blur. If the sun alone is racing by, it should appear much faster than all around it. But neither us, nor the sun does this. Therefore, either the sun is also moving extremely fast, or the sun is actually a near orbit, not nearly as hot as we are told, and completes its movement around the Earth relatively easily.

Despite that some of the assertions, to be true, make no sense, the head of NASA said it, and so did my school teacher, and I've been told people always believed it. Yes, and? People believe stupid things, and consensus doesn't equal veracity. It just means there are many people on a bandwagon unable or unwilling to ask, "Okay, how do I know what I've been told is true? What if the people who told me this are idiots?"

Okay, so wait a minute here ... you're not good at doing science and you made up some numbers to save yourself, so you imagine all scientists are just flubbing numbers all over the world, just to save face, like you did?

Let me ask you something ... why on earth would NASA want to pretend that the earth is round? What could possibly be in it for them to deceive the world? Are they just making up all the evidence that indicates that the earth is an oblate spheroid? And if so, why???
Oh, I have another question ... have you ever been on an airplane, or a ship out at sea? Could you not see the curvature of the earth with your own eyes?
And one more, because you didn't answer the first time .... You're convinced by a strangely worded internet meme created by some random person but disbelieve carefully measured scientific findings and observations? Why? Can you not see the folly in that?

 

[MikeDwight]

The World. is … FLAT!!! Inner Orion Spur for the win.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yeah, about those laser pointer things ...

You should go watch the Netflix documentary called "Behind the Curve" where you'll see flat earth conspiracy theorists falsify their own hypothesis, with a simple laser pointer experiment.
Then they just say "uh, that's interesting" and sweep it under the rug.

And don't forget the very expensive ring laser gyroscope that they bought. It was supposed to show no rotation at all but when they turned it on it immediately displayed a "15 degree per hour drift". Hmm, what object rotates at fifteen degrees per hour?

 

[exchemist]

And don't forget the very expensive ring laser gyroscope that they bought. It was supposed to show no rotation at all but when they turned it on it immediately displayed a "15 degree per hour drift". Hmm, what object rotates at fifteen degrees per hour?

What's all this? It sounds terribly funny.

 

[Ouroboros]

Here's another thing, I live in California and most of my family live in Sweden. 9 hours difference. When we have morning here, they have evening there. When we have evening here, they have morning there. I can call any time to confirm this, and even Skype them and tell there's a difference in time. This wouldn't happen if Earth was flat. Either they're paid by NASA to lie (my 90 year old mom who doesn't speak English?) or perhaps me and my wife and kids here are all lying to them about what time we have here and using software to mimic day and night? Either alternative is ludicrous. Besides, I've flown between the countries at 33,000 feet altitude over Alaska and the North Pole to take the shortest path between the continents, also only possible if there's a curvature.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What's all this? It sounds terribly funny.

Let me see if I can find a small snip from the video for you.

 

[Ouroboros]

And don't forget the very expensive ring laser gyroscope that they bought. It was supposed to show no rotation at all but when they turned it on it immediately displayed a "15 degree per hour drift". Hmm, what object rotates at fifteen degrees per hour?

Have you heard about "Mad" Mike who's trying to prove Earth is flat by building a steam propelled rocket? He's done it a couple of times now, and he reaches some hundreds maybe just over 1000 feet (I think). Which is really stupid since you can get into an airplane and get much higher.

 

[Flame]

Have you heard about "Mad" Mike who's trying to prove Earth is flat by building a steam propelled rocket? He's done it a couple of times now, and he reaches some hundreds maybe just over 1000 feet (I think). Which is really stupid since you can get into an airplane and get much higher.

Haven't you heard? Airplane companies trick you to help hide NASA's lies.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What's all this? It sounds terribly funny.

Here you go. Jump forward to the four minute mark:

 

[Subduction Zone]

Have you heard about "Mad" Mike who's trying to prove Earth is flat by building a steam propelled rocket? He's done it a couple of times now, and he reaches some hundreds maybe just over 1000 feet (I think). Which is really stupid since you can get into an airplane and get much higher.

I love the adventures of Mad Mike. He is proof of the claim that the gods protect the insane.

 

[Ouroboros]

Haven't you heard? Airplane companies trick you to help hide NASA's lies.

I know, right? And the pilots, stewardesses, and not only that, everyone who's using GPS on their phones are also in on it, and anyone with family in other time zones, and anyone using anything related to satellite technology. LOL! Poor Elon Musk, he'll be soooo disappointed when he discover that his Space-X rockets have been flying stuff to ISS that's circling a pancake.

 

[Ouroboros]

I love the adventures of Mad Mike. He is proof of the claim that the gods protect the insane.

So true. It's a miracle (proof of God, right there) that he's done it several times and survived.

But he really needs to do what Felix Baumgartner (128k) or Alan Eustace (current record holder at 135k) did.

 

[Ouroboros]

And adding to the time zones, so I have family in Sweden, live in California, have friends on the east coast, and even in Hong Kong. I know from all the experience talking to them all over Skype and at different times, that the only way they time zones work is that Earth has a extreme curvature, like an orb or sphere, and not flat.

It's just ridiculous that anyone in our modern time and age can be serious about believing in Flat Earth. I get it that some "believe" as a joke, trolling, etc, but that's just for fun. But seriously, actually think that there's a huge half a billion to a billion people involved in some secret conspiracy or scheme to fool everyone? It's just beyond dumb.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And adding to the time zones, so I have family in Sweden, live in California, have friends on the east coast, and even in Hong Kong. I know from all the experience talking to them all over Skype and at different times, that the only way they time zones work is that Earth has a extreme curvature, like an orb or sphere, and not flat.

It's just ridiculous that anyone in our modern time and age can be serious about believing in Flat Earth. I get it that some "believe" as a joke, trolling, etc, but that's just for fun. But seriously, actually think that there's a huge half a billion to a billion people involved in some secret conspiracy or scheme to fool everyone? It's just beyond dumb.

I have a different theory:

 

[exchemist]

Here you go. Jump forward to the four minute mark:

Oh dear oh dear.

The psychology of this intrigues me. Why do people - who are not residents of secure psychiatric institutions - apparently feel the need to disbelieve something so ordinary and for which there is so much obvious evidence in the modern world?

I found this article about it which may help a bit: Flat Earthers: Belief, Skepticism, and Denialism

Denialism seems to be a sort of reaction against received wisdom, shared by climate change deniers, anti-vaxxers and others who like to take a contrarian stance. I think we can all sympathise with this feeling at times. We all like to think we won't be pushed around and will make up our own minds for ourselves. But it is weird to expend energy on something so perverse.

The writer suggests that Flat Earthers don't really believe that if they keep going they will get to the edge. So it involves a sort cognitive dissonance, evidently. Maybe it's a hobby and a wish to feel part of a minority group.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Oh dear oh dear.

The psychology of this intrigues me. Why do people - who are not residents of secure psychiatric institutions - apparently feel the need to disbelieve something so ordinary and for which there is so much obvious evidence in the modern world?

I found this article about it which may help a bit: Flat Earthers: Belief, Skepticism, and Denialism

Denialism seems to be a sort of reaction against received wisdom, shared by climate change deniers, anti-vaxxers and others who like to take a contrarian stance. I think we can all sympathise with this feeling at times. We all like to think we won't be pushed around and will make up our own minds for ourselves. But it is weird to expend energy on something so perverse.

The writer suggests that Flat Earthers don't really believe that if they keep going they will get to the edge. So it involves a sort cognitive dissonance, evidently. Maybe it's a hobby and a wish to feel part of a minority group.

I see that they mentioned the Christopher Columbus myth too. At Christopher Columbus's time it was well known that the Earth was a sphere, and in fact that was why Columbus's journey was at first rejected by various sponsors. His sponsors were not idiots and they contacted the experts of that time that told them Columbus was wrong. And they were right. They did not think that Columbus was wrong because they thought that the Earth was flat. They thought that he was wrong because they knew that the Earth was much bigger than Columbus thought that it was. Look on a globe at the distance from Europe to India when sailing westerly. Assume that the Americas do not exist and you can see that it is an epic journey. Now compare that to the length of Columbus's actual trip. The story goes that Columbus's crew was beginning to have sever doubts by the time that he had reached the New World.. That was about how far he thought that it was to India. Look on the globe how much further he had to go. He was woefully under prepared for a journey of that length.

 

[exchemist]

I see that they mentioned the Christopher Columbus myth too. At Christopher Columbus's time it was well known that the Earth was a sphere, and in fact that was why Columbus's journey was at first rejected by various sponsors. His sponsors were not idiots and they contacted the experts of that time that told them Columbus was wrong. And they were right. They did not think that Columbus was wrong because they thought that the Earth was flat. They thought that he was wrong because they knew that the Earth was much bigger than Columbus thought that it was. Look on a globe at the distance from Europe to India when sailing westerly. Assume that the Americas do not exist and you can see that it is an epic journey. Now compare that to the length of Columbus's actual trip. The story goes that Columbus's crew was beginning to have sever doubts by the time that he had reached the New World.. That was about how far he thought that it was to India. Look on the globe how much further he had to go. He was woefully under prepared for a journey of that length.

Which was silly of him, since Eratosthenes had estimated the circumference of the Earth pretty accurately in 300BC and his estimate would have been known to scholars of his time - if they believed it, of course.