Proving Life After Death

[Draka]

I would compare this thinking to those who think that Elvis is alive.

Elvis is alive. And he's a wonderful skater! :yes:

Elvis Stojko

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Elvis?

ROTFL! Sorry! I was very unclear in my post. I should have included the double quote of ayani to make it clear. I was referring to Jesus Christ. What I meant is, you can't trust a bunch of rumors on something as important as the existence of God. But it certainly changes things to meet him yourself.

 

[Arlanbb]

i'm recalling this from Lee Strobel's book The Case for Christ.

Strobel was questioning what evidence we have that Jesus is risen from the dead. a scholar had gone over the Gospel narratives carefully with him, and gave good reasons (logical and historical) why we can believe that the tomb was empty, and that Jesus is alive. then he gave another interesting answer- he considered out loud the fact that many, many people have claimed to have personal encounters with the Lord Jesus.

we're not talking about an expected or hoped-for vision encouraged by a worshipful setting. but rather unexpected dreams, visions, and sometimes a meeting with Him in the flesh. No one has any pictures of Jesus so how do they know they were meeting Jesus, they could have been meeting with the Satan for all they know. This is a bunch of hogwarsh.

as Christians, we base our faith on His resurrection from the dead. this proves His divinity, Being raised from the dead does not prove his divinity, Lazerus was raised from the dead so does that prove his divinity, lets be real.

His oneness with God, and His eternal nature. He is not simply a dead rabbi or philosopher, nor is He simply an exceptional moral teacher. He is the unique Son of God, and because He lives, we will live also.

i'd say the empty tomb and His own promises to all who would believe in Him are themselves compelling evidences for life after death.

You guys don't know what compelling evidence really is.

 

[Arlanbb]

Life after death does not exist! How do we know this? One simple piece of evidence: memory. Neuroscience has mapped to a certain degree how our brains store memories. Structures of neurons themselves store long–term memories (a bit like a hard drive). When something damages these structures it damages the memories too. You can see this clearly with conditions like amnesia.

When death occurs it stops and therefore destroys the very same structures. In other words, death destroys all memories. Memories form a vital function, because without them we cannot recognise friends or family, or make decisions based on past experience.

(Of course this represents a brief explanation of an extremely complex process which you can research into further.)

We can expand this idea to the rest of the brain and body. For example, since death destroys the brain it also puts an end to decision–making processes, so we cannot do things like reason or think. Structures regulating reflexes, bodily control, all the senses, etc, also stop. Essentially nothing, no part of us, survives death. If a spirit remains (which I do not believe), it remains blind, deaf, unable to reason, unable to remember, unable to think, feel or do anything. In other words, completely incapable of doing, feeling, or existing in a manner which resembles life!

You have it right death is death no more memorie

 

[McBell]

It's on-going research, not yet solid proof

You may wish to look at this page on research done in hospitals in Holland, and published in The Lancet in December 2001:

Dutch Study

In the UK, an experiment conducted by Southampton university researchers in the intensive care units of hospitals with patients in critical conditions suspected will suffer from a heart-attack, and possibly to be rescued from an NDE (some details are in the above page under the UK Study)

A cue card is to be placed in a high location above the bed of the patient in a place where no one would be able where no one in the room could see it, as it could only be seen from ceiling level looking down

PS: I just found a follow-up to the Southampton University research will take place in the UK & the US:


A large study is to examine near-death experiences in cardiac arrest patients.
Doctors at 25 UK and US hospitals will study 1,500 survivors to see if people with no heartbeat or brain activity can have "out of body" experiences.

Some people report seeing a tunnel or bright light, others recall looking down from the ceiling at medical staff. The study, due to take three years and co-ordinated by Southampton University, will include placing on shelves images that could only be seen from above.

To test this, the researchers have set up special shelving in resuscitation areas. The shelves hold pictures - but they're visible only from the ceiling.

Dr Sam Parnia, who is heading the study, said: "If you can demonstrate that consciousness continues after the brain switches off, it allows for the possibility that the consciousness is a separate entity.

"It is unlikely that we will find many cases where this happens, but we have to be open-minded.

"And if no one sees the pictures, it shows these experiences are illusions or false memories. "This is a mystery that we can now subject to scientific study."

BBC NEWS | Health | Study into near-death experiences

An interesing area of research to be monitored

All the best

Thank you for the links.

 

[Arlanbb]

I wish I’d made a note of the source, but I recall reading an article online about how scientists could artificially induce the OOBE (out of body experience) sometimes reported by people during stressful times (like a major operation) by electrically stimulating certain parts of the brain. I’ll have to try and find it online somewhere so I can link it.

EDIT. For example:



From this site: Brain stimulation sparks out-of-body experience

On public radio yesterday they were telling how they were doing OOBE on the pilots in the hi speed centrufuge {s} and at 10 G or more and the pilots saw bright lites in a tunnel and all these strange things like NDE was happening as the blood was draining from the head under the different G's induced to the body. So all this OOBE that people talk about that happen to them has a very simple reason behind it. Blood is leaving the brain and brings on all these strange sensations. When the blood comes back to the brain your back to normal.

 

[Arlanbb]

May i add that one of the air men was telling about one time he was doing some very tight turns when all of a sudden he was sitting above and behind himself looking down and watching himself fly the plane. As soon as the plane came out of the turn he was back in the plane again. So all this stuff about OOBE is a normal occurance when the bllod supply to the brain drops very low. There is no life after death.

 

[YmirGF]

May i add that one of the air men was telling about one time he was doing some very tight turns when all of a sudden he was sitting above and behind himself looking down and watching himself fly the plane. As soon as the plane came out of the turn he was back in the plane again. So all this stuff about OOBE is a normal occurance when the bllod supply to the brain drops very low. There is no life after death.

That conclusion is a bit of a reach, friend. I think it might be more accurate to say that introducing tremendous pressures on the human body can generate unusual subjective perspectives. What you are citing is a rather extreme example and perhaps should only be considered as one possible scenario resulting from extreme trauma on the body, which falls in line with what I have been saying for years.

It is always amuzing to me listening to people who have not had OOBE's talk about the subject. How quick people are to say, "Well this is THE answer!" The truth of the matter is that science still doesn't understand what is really involved here. Give them a few more million dollars and a few more years and who knows what they might find.

For example, the bloody supply scenario doesn't necessarily apply to me when I am in meditation and experience OOBE's. Considering I can flip back and forth, at will, sort of blows the idea out of the water unless my body is going through some pretty wild fluctuations that one would think I would be somewhat aware of.

 

[Kodanshi]

…and that would cause some extreme stress to your physical body as a result!

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

May i add that one of the air men was telling about one time he was doing some very tight turns when all of a sudden he was sitting above and behind himself looking down and watching himself fly the plane. As soon as the plane came out of the turn he was back in the plane again. So all this stuff about OOBE is a normal occurance when the bllod supply to the brain drops very low. There is no life after death.

I somewhat agree. But that doesn't explain how someone who has an oobe can learn/observe something that would otherwise be impossible. Such as knowing what someone was doing in another room.

 

[Nepenthe]

I somewhat agree. But that doesn't explain how someone who has an oobe can learn/observe something that would otherwise be impossible. Such as knowing what someone was doing in another room.

Perhaps, but until that's actually demonstrated it's a moot point. Sure, there are lots of claims that this has been done, but nothing replicated under scientifically controlled conditions to date.

 

[Iman]

In addition to revealation, I could cite two phenomena. The first is dreams in which many people encounter dead people giving them messages that were true yet hidden or not previously known to the dreamer. I have personally seen an older pious lady foresee the deaths of certain relatives in a recurring dream of dead relatives getting ready to receive a new comer. It came true almost instantly every time.
The second argument is that human beings need things like food and water. That urge precedes the knowledge that water or food exists. That need is directly connected to an existing commodity, which is water or food. Like wise, all of human yearnings have an existing means of fulfillment, including love, security, social needs, and offspring. Even the less common yearnings like flying or connecting across distances has come to materialize and more will continue to materialize in coming years. The need /yearning for prolonged existence beyond death is one of the strongest yearnings. Why should it be any different?

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Perhaps, but until that's actually demonstrated it's a moot point. Sure, there are lots of claims that this has been done, but nothing replicated under scientifically controlled conditions to date.

I guess you're right. For those who already believe, it is just more evidence. For those who don't, it's just more people trying to make up evidence. It's not enough to convince someone one way or another.

 

[tumbleweed41]

In addition to revealation, I could cite two phenomena. The first is dreams in which many people encounter dead people giving them messages that were true yet hidden or not previously known to the dreamer. I have personally seen an older pious lady foresee the deaths of certain relatives in a recurring dream of dead relatives getting ready to receive a new comer. It came true almost instantly every time.

This is not in addition to revelation, it is revelation. A reveled revelation to the older pious lady which you believe to be true.

The second argument is that human beings need things like food and water. That urge precedes the knowledge that water or food exists. That need is directly connected to an existing commodity, which is water or food. Like wise, all of human yearnings have an existing means of fulfillment, including love, security, social needs, and offspring. Even the less common yearnings like flying or connecting across distances has come to materialize and more will continue to materialize in coming years. The need /yearning for prolonged existence beyond death is one of the strongest yearnings. Why should it be any different?

The need /yearning for prolonged existence beyond death is directly related to our natural fear of death. A necessary survival instinct.

 

[Nepenthe]

I guess you're right. For those who already believe, it is just more evidence. For those who don't, it's just more people trying to make up evidence. It's not enough to convince someone one way or another.

No, it's people misinterpreting evidence and/or seeing evidence where there is none. No need to accuse anyone of making anything up. And it would be enough to convince me, and more importantly those engaged in the research, if some valid scientific results were obtained. I'd change my mind if the facts warranted it.

 

[Iman]

This is not in addition to revelation, it is revelation. A reveled revelation to the older pious lady which you believe to be true.



The need /yearning for prolonged existence beyond death is directly related to our natural fear of death. A necessary survival instinct.

First, I witnessed the incident firsthand as she told me the dream and was there afterwards when the phone call arrived informing her of the foreseen death. How I interpreted it is what may be controversial. There are countless accounts of people communicating one way or the other with the dead. At least some of these accounts are bound to be true.
Second, fear of death is also natural. But it is not the same as the yearning for life after death. That one can drive people to sacrifice life for thoughts that may grant them fulfillment after death. Also there is the thought that if death was the ultimate villain or final chapter, why do we, even those who are not believers, think that there are things bigger than life/death.

There is also the overwhelming thought that I'm sure many experience of the arbitrary relationship between our bodily form and our consciousness. We sometimes see/feel/imagine ourselves in different forms. That IMO is an indication that I have an independent existence beyond my bodily existence. That may be subjective, as all arguments are regarding metaphysical ideas, but isn't our reality a reflection of how we construct and interpret the bits of knowledge gleaned through our limited faculties.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

No, it's people misinterpreting evidence and/or seeing evidence where there is none. No need to accuse anyone of making anything up. And it would be enough to convince me, and more importantly those engaged in the research, if some valid scientific results were obtained. I'd change my mind if the facts warranted it.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. We'll just have to wait for the evidence then.

 

[lockyfan]

I know there isnt a direct life after death, I do know for sure that most who die get the hope of a resurrection to life on earth, but that doesnt happen until God has removed the world powers in charge now.

There is a ressurection of a few people who go to heaven, but they rule as kings and priest with Christ during his reign, not everyone goes to heaven.

 

[Mister_T]

It is always amuzing to me listening to people who have not had OOBE's talk about the subject. How quick people are to say, "Well this is THE answer!" The truth of the matter is that science still doesn't understand what is really involved here. Give them a few more million dollars and a few more years and who knows what they might find.

I remember reading a book by Patrick Glynn called God: The Evidence, and in one of the chapters they discussed the study OBE's. One part that had stuck out to me was that one of the OBE subjects was a pilot who had experienced OBE's while flying and had experienced and OBE by being dead and brought back to life. When the pilot was asked if the two were the same experience by the people conducting the study, he told them "no, they were not the same thing." In particular, the sense of "realism" for the near death OBE as opposed to the one's he'd experienced while flying.

I'll have to go over the cliff notes and see if I can pull the study up online.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I would compare this thinking to those who think that Elvis is alive.

Elvis is alive. Long live the King.