Proving logic can't explain existence

[FocusedIntent]

I would like to prove that there is no logic that can explain existence which will mean that not only are there no universal laws, but existence itself is magical and anything is possible and the world is not what we think it is.

It doesn't matter if you believe in creationism or evolution for this thought experiment lets go to the source of all things. I am going to call this SOURCE. For creationists this SOURCE can be God and for others it can be the energy that made up the original big bang it really doesn't matter.

What we are debating is how did this SOURCE of everything come into existence?

I see only 2 possible ways SOURCE came into existence:

1. It has always existed with no beginning and no end. (defies all logic)
2. Magically popped into existence from nothingness. (defies all logic)

Those are the only 2 options and don't you see that either way something amazing, magical, and beyond our wildest dreams is going on here that can't be explained or rationalized?

Existence itself is a sheer mystery!! If source is magical, and you are made from source, then you are magical too!

Don't you see the only logical thing is that there should have been nothingness, and nothing should have come from that nothingness, so there should be nothing, but that's not the case! You are living proof that all this is a miracle!

 

[PureX]

Logically speaking, I agree.

But also, logically speaking, this leads us to the conclusion of our unknowing, not to the conclusion of a "magical" solution.

 

[Altfish]

The honest answer is, "I don't know?"

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I would like to prove that there is no logic that can explain existence which will mean that not only are there no universal laws, but existence itself is magical and anything is possible and the world is not what we think it is.

It doesn't matter if you believe in creationism or evolution for this thought experiment lets go to the source of all things. I am going to call this SOURCE. For creationists this SOURCE can be God and for others it can be the energy that made up the original big bang it really doesn't matter.

What we are debating is how did this SOURCE of everything come into existence?

I see only 2 possible ways SOURCE came into existence:

1. It has always existed with no beginning and no end. (defies all logic)
2. Magically popped into existence from nothingness. (defies all logic)

Those are the only 2 options and don't you see that either way something amazing, magical, and beyond our wildest dreams is going on here that can't be explained or rationalized?

Existence itself is a sheer mystery!! If source is magical, and you are made from source, then you are magical too!

Don't you see the only logical thing is that there should have been nothingness, and nothing should have come from that nothingness, so there should be nothing, but that's not the case! You are living proof that all this is a miracle!

I'm not a science nerd, but I read that energy has no beginning or end. It has always existed. It's not a mystery or unknown so far we know how it works from physics and so forth. We also know that different types of energy sustains and motivates life and things on earth (take that as ye will). So, in that respect, there is no beginning or end.

As for source, I wouldn't call energy source. It makes it sound like a fixed thing (or being, or so have you) that has a hand or guides the making of things. Instead, I'd say (if you see the stars for example) everything is shaped into and out of being. The formation of the physical universe. The creation of a child from sperm and egg. Things burst and things develop. Recycled. So, if there is a source it's the "act of" formation (playdoing I guess) not the act of creation.

As for it being a mystery, I disagree that the source (the act of) is a mystery. We do study the movement of what makes stars et cetera. So, it's a mystery on our part but not of itself; it just is.

As for it being magical, I would not say so. Mystery I understand to an extent since we don't know everything about how things form into and out of existence and the mechanisms of that motion, but magical? Sounds like a Disney movie. Fantasia comes to mind.

 

[Polymath257]

I see only 2 possible ways SOURCE came into existence:

1. It has always existed with no beginning and no end. (defies all logic)

Which principle of logic does it violate?

2. Magically popped into existence from nothingness. (defies all logic)

Which principle of logic does it violate?

Is a lack of cause a violation of logic? or is it merely a violation of biases about physics?

Is an infinite regress a violation of logic? or is it mere the violation of biases against infinite regresses?

 

[Nakosis]

I would like to prove that there is no logic that can explain existence which will mean that not only are there no universal laws, but existence itself is magical and anything is possible and the world is not what we think it is.

It doesn't matter if you believe in creationism or evolution for this thought experiment lets go to the source of all things. I am going to call this SOURCE. For creationists this SOURCE can be God and for others it can be the energy that made up the original big bang it really doesn't matter.

What we are debating is how did this SOURCE of everything come into existence?

I see only 2 possible ways SOURCE came into existence:

1. It has always existed with no beginning and no end. (defies all logic)
2. Magically popped into existence from nothingness. (defies all logic)

Those are the only 2 options and don't you see that either way something amazing, magical, and beyond our wildest dreams is going on here that can't be explained or rationalized?

Existence itself is a sheer mystery!! If source is magical, and you are made from source, then you are magical too!

Don't you see the only logical thing is that there should have been nothingness, and nothing should have come from that nothingness, so there should be nothing, but that's not the case! You are living proof that all this is a miracle!

The purpose of logic is not to explain existence. The purpose of logic is to test the truth of a statement.

1. It has always existed with no beginning and no end. (defies all logic)
2. Magically popped into existence from nothingness. (defies all logic)

So here you are saying that logic can't test the truth of either statement.

Then go on to use both statements as logical proof of something.

 

[FocusedIntent]

Logically speaking, I agree.

But also, logically speaking, this leads us to the conclusion of our unknowing, not to the conclusion of a "magical" solution.

We listed what the only 2 possible ways for source to come into existence are so that is not unknown to us. It is just hard to accept because it defies all our rationality. It does seem magical to me. I know if source can miraculously pop into existence, and we are made from source, then anything is possible for us too. The only limitation for what you can achieve is the limitation of your imagination!

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

I see only 2 possible ways SOURCE came into existence:

Your seeing is limited. You are a short-sighted human beings, just like me. Human beings are short-sighted, imperfect and full of flaws. There are so many times we can't even correctly diagnose other [sick] human beings who are in front of us who are observable and testable. There are many unexplainable phenomenas in our own earth, they are beyond our comprehension. The universe is immeasurably more complex and mysterious. How can we judge it so easily with inherently limited and flawed tools?

1. It has always existed with no beginning and no end. (defies all logic)
2. Magically popped into existence from nothingness. (defies all logic)

Not sure about logic but it does sound counter-intuitive. But then again, going by quantum mechanics, seemingly counter-intuitive things do happen. So, I won't attach much importance to such arguments.

However, I do agree with that argument to some extent. If there was no beginning and no end to the source and it has been like this since infinity, how could a certain event would have been reached?

Think about it this way --- Consider a line of shooter, each shooting after the one behind him has shot. Now, imagine this line to be infinite. It would become impossible for the time to come for certain shooter because to get to him, infinite amount of shooter have to first finish their shots. I apply the same logic with our world. It would become impossible for [let's say] the time for formation of earth before that, infinite number of events of to be taken place first.

Same with the other point of magically pop out of existence out of nowhere. It sounds irrational. Going by my previous example, it's like saying an event occurred where one of the shooter just pulled out a rocket launcher out of thin air and just fired it. That's absurd.

But then again, I don't think logic [and maths] is universally applicable. We have logical paradoxes which shows that logic is limited and have inherent problems. Maths [which is also based on logic] have it's own paradoxes. Besides, even maths is far from perfect. Even Euclids took things on granted, thus we have axioms with no logical proof. We can't prove axioms.

 

[PureX]

We listed what the only 2 possible ways for source to come into existence are so that is not unknown to us.

Sure it is. The assumption that these are the only two possibilities is unfounded. They may be the only two we can think of, but that does not mean they are the only two that can possibly exist. And it is that unknown that remains when the two possibilities that we can perceive cancel each other out.

It is just hard to accept because it defies all our rationality. It does seem magical to me. I know if source can miraculously pop into existence, and we are made from source, then anything is possible for us too. The only limitation for what you can achieve is the limitation of your imagination!

Again, the human brain thinks by comparing and contrasting information sets. It is a 'binary' mechanism. So it takes all incoming information as a "set". In this case the "eternal" set, and the "self-induced" set. And it tries to compare and contrast them for their relative 'truth value'. And it 'doesn't compute' that way. The key bit of information required to resolve the "first cause/no cause" dilemma is missing. It is an unknown. And that is where the dilemma must remain, logically, until that unknown determinant becomes known to us.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I would like to prove that there is no logic that can explain existence which will mean that not only are there no universal laws, but existence itself is magical and anything is possible and the world is not what we think it is.

It doesn't matter if you believe in creationism or evolution for this thought experiment lets go to the source of all things. I am going to call this SOURCE. For creationists this SOURCE can be God and for others it can be the energy that made up the original big bang it really doesn't matter.

What we are debating is how did this SOURCE of everything come into existence?

I see only 2 possible ways SOURCE came into existence:

1. It has always existed with no beginning and no end. (defies all logic)
2. Magically popped into existence from nothingness. (defies all logic)

Those are the only 2 options and don't you see that either way something amazing, magical, and beyond our wildest dreams is going on here that can't be explained or rationalized?

Existence itself is a sheer mystery!! If source is magical, and you are made from source, then you are magical too!

Don't you see the only logical thing is that there should have been nothingness, and nothing should have come from that nothingness, so there should be nothing, but that's not the case! You are living proof that all this is a miracle!

Does not compute Will Robinson.

 

[ChristineM]

. It has always existed with no beginning and no end. (defies all logic)

No, it simply defies your ability to comprehend infinity

2. Magically popped into existence from nothingness. (defies all logic)

Not magic but a possibility in the quantum realm

 

[paarsurrey]

I would like to prove that there is no logic that can explain existence which will mean that not only are there no universal laws, but existence itself is magical and anything is possible and the world is not what we think it is.

It doesn't matter if you believe in creationism or evolution for this thought experiment lets go to the source of all things. I am going to call this SOURCE. For creationists this SOURCE can be God and for others it can be the energy that made up the original big bang it really doesn't matter.

What we are debating is how did this SOURCE of everything come into existence?

I see only 2 possible ways SOURCE came into existence:

1. It has always existed with no beginning and no end. (defies all logic)
2. Magically popped into existence from nothingness. (defies all logic)

Those are the only 2 options and don't you see that either way something amazing, magical, and beyond our wildest dreams is going on here that can't be explained or rationalized?

Existence itself is a sheer mystery!! If source is magical, and you are made from source, then you are magical too!

Don't you see the only logical thing is that there should have been nothingness, and nothing should have come from that nothingness, so there should be nothing, but that's not the case! You are living proof that all this is a miracle!

Doesn't it prove that logic has its own fallacies, and at certain occasions it becomes illogical and negates itself, please? Right, please?

Regards

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You are living proof that all this is a miracle!

And you are living proof that many haven't the slightest understanding of this thing called logic. It's good to know that we both serve a purpose (if only in our imagination).

 

[paarsurrey]

Sure it is. The assumption that these are the only two possibilities is unfounded. They may be the only two we can think of, but that does not mean they are the only two that can possibly exist. And it is that unknown that remains when the two possibilities that we can perceive cancel each other out.
Again, the human brain thinks by comparing and contrasting information sets. It is a 'binary' mechanism. So it takes all incoming information as a "set". In this case the "eternal" set, and the "self-induced" set. And it tries to compare and contrast them for their relative 'truth value'. And it 'doesn't compute' that way. The key bit of information required to resolve the "first cause/no cause" dilemma is missing. It is an unknown. And that is where the dilemma must remain, logically, until that unknown determinant becomes known to us.

" until that unknown determinant becomes known to us."

And that has exactly happened, G-d conversed with many humans and let Himself known, I understand. Right, please ?

Regards
__________________
[20:12] فَلَمَّاۤ اَتٰٮہَا نُوۡدِیَ یٰمُوۡسٰی ﴿ؕ۱۲﴾
And when he came to it, he was called by a voice, ‘O Moses,
[20:13] اِنِّیۡۤ اَنَا رَبُّکَ فَاخۡلَعۡ نَعۡلَیۡکَ ۚ اِنَّکَ بِالۡوَادِ الۡمُقَدَّسِ طُوًی ﴿ؕ۱۳﴾
‘Verily, I am thy Lord. So take off thy shoes; for thou art in the sacred Valley of Tuwa.

 

[Brian2]

What we are debating is how did this SOURCE of everything come into existence?

I see only 2 possible ways SOURCE came into existence:

1. It has always existed with no beginning and no end. (defies all logic)
2. Magically popped into existence from nothingness. (defies all logic)

Magically popped into existence from nothing defies logic,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but it could have evolved slowly using existing scientific principles,,,,,,,,,,,,,just joking.
It has always existed with no beginning and no end. Hmmm. If not then the alternative is true, it popped into existence from nothing.
If it had a pre existing cause then that cause must have come from somewhere, and the cause of that cause, so existence has either gone on from eternity or existence popped into being.
What is wrong with something having been here from eternity?
I actually see a problem with that in that if time goes into the past infinitely then we could not be here at this point in time yet.
The Big Bang it seems means that time began, since time is related to this physical universe.
Anyway mathematicians have come up with all sorts of ideas about time so that it could have gone on infinitely into the past (maybe around in circles or maybe time is an illusion or something......).....but I don't know what they are talking about, especially when it does not seem to change what I am talking about.

Don't you see the only logical thing is that there should have been nothingness, and nothing should have come from that nothingness, so there should be nothing, but that's not the case! You are living proof that all this is a miracle!

A miracle seems to suggest someone who does miracles.
I'll go with a miracle doer. I don't see why this someone could not have existed in timelessness (from eternity?) and that we call what it did a miracle because we don't know the mechanism and cannot do it ourselves.

 

[FocusedIntent]

Doesn't it prove that logic has its own fallacies, and at certain occasions it becomes illogical and negates itself, please? Right, please?

Regards

Yes all your logic and scientific reasoning negates itself! You got it bud! And when your logic fails you take my word for it, you are a magical being and anything is possible in this miraculous existence.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That was the first part of this lesson are you all ready for the 2nd part?

What did we learn? There is no such thing as nothingness! If there was such a thing as nothingness, since nothing comes from nothing, then you would be experiencing nothing right now, but your not! Nothing or nothingness is just a human concept, but it doesn't exist! That means that source has always existed and always will, and so will you!

We figured out which is the right way that source came into existence! It was number 1!

For anybody that thought it was number 2: If nothingness existed then you would be experiencing it right now, but your not! That proves that there is no nothingness!

 

[cladking]

What if the source is "time"? If time and energy can be related as energy and matter than time could create reality.

If anything is eternal it just might be time.

It certainly has existed and will exist in great abundance.

 

[osgart]

So natural laws are just right for us to be here. Then you could ask why these particular laws, or how did the laws come to be in the first place.

Are these laws timeless, eternal, and fixed? Or are the laws fleeting and rare occurrences?

Could the laws have been otherwise?

As speculation would have it you could always ask why a why answer exists and go on with forever asking why.

The Absolute Simplicity of Unconditioned Reality

Perhaps eternality is the default condition. If existence exists then it has always existed. Existence being the norm.

Any way you slice it, you can ask why that particular why exists until you come to an ultimate ground of existence; an existence that needs no other reasons or conditions for its existence.

Things that seem to come from nothing may have an entirely different form of existence before they pop into our existence range.

There's plenty of reasons for believing many things about existence.

It's all a matter of where you choose to stop asking why. Some people are satisfied with an initial condition and a how and then they stop. Others see more to answer for that their opposers will easily dismiss as not relevant even though it is extremely relevant.

Who of all humans has the official logic of reality. Many humans want to end speculation, and inquiry abruptly with insults to the speculator's inquiry. But I don't believe anyone has attained to the authoritative conclusion on all matters of reality. Many materialists expect their research to officially close off any further speculation beyond what is currently available to know.

Wonder and inquiry about questions this thread attempts to address is perfectly reasonable and perfectly valid.

I hope you are not deterred by all the intellectual pride here. People love to officiate their thinking so they can dismiss genuine wonder that other people have. They come on here to be king crushers of people that have genuine and valid considerations.

The truth is no human has a monopoly on reality coming from where we come from. People hold real contempt for spiritual outlooks.

 

[paarsurrey]

So natural laws are just right for us to be here. Then you could ask why these particular laws, or how did the laws come to be in the first place.

Are these laws timeless, eternal, and fixed? Or are the laws fleeting and rare occurrences?

Could the laws have been otherwise?

As speculation would have it you could always ask why a why answer exists and go on with forever asking why.

The Absolute Simplicity of Unconditioned Reality

Perhaps eternality is the default condition. If existence exists then it has always existed. Existence being the norm.

Any way you slice it, you can ask why that particular why exists until you come to an ultimate ground of existence; an existence that needs no other reasons or conditions for its existence.

Things that seem to come from nothing may have an entirely different form of existence before they pop into our existence range.

There's plenty of reasons for believing many things about existence.

It's all a matter of where you choose to stop asking why. Some people are satisfied with an initial condition and a how and then they stop. Others see more to answer for that their opposers will easily dismiss as not relevant even though it is extremely relevant.

Who of all humans has the official logic of reality. Many humans want to end speculation, and inquiry abruptly with insults to the speculator's inquiry. But I don't believe anyone has attained to the authoritative conclusion on all matters of reality. Many materialists expect their research to officially close off any further speculation beyond what is currently available to know.

Wonder and inquiry about questions this thread attempts to address is perfectly reasonable and perfectly valid.

I hope you are not deterred by all the intellectual pride here. People love to officiate their thinking so they can dismiss genuine wonder that other people have. They come on here to be king crushers of people that have genuine and valid considerations.

The truth is no human has a monopoly on reality coming from where we come from. People hold real contempt for spiritual outlooks.

" So natural laws are just right for us to be here. "

And who created the "Natural Laws", please? Right, please?

Regards

 

[McBell]

" So natural laws are just right for us to be here. "

And who created the "Natural Laws", please? Right, please?

Regards

Dagda