Proving logic can't explain existence

[Brian2]

Which principle of logic does it violate?

Which principle of logic does it violate?

Is a lack of cause a violation of logic? or is it merely a violation of biases about physics?

Is an infinite regress a violation of logic? or is it mere the violation of biases against infinite regresses?

Infinite regress is a violation of logic. Cause and effect cannot have happened an infinite number of times to end up here.

 

[Brian2]

Yes all your logic and scientific reasoning negates itself! You got it bud! And when your logic fails you take my word for it, you are a magical being and anything is possible in this miraculous existence.

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That was the first part of this lesson are you all ready for the 2nd part?

What did we learn? There is no such thing as nothingness! If there was such a thing as nothingness, since nothing comes from nothing, then you would be experiencing nothing right now, but your not! Nothing or nothingness is just a human concept, but it doesn't exist! That means that source has always existed and always will, and so will you!

We figured out which is the right way that source came into existence! It was number 1!

For anybody that thought it was number 2: If nothingness existed then you would be experiencing it right now, but your not! That proves that there is no nothingness!

So you are saying that either God has always existed as the source of everything or everything has always existed as the source of itself.

 

[Brian2]

What if the source is "time"? If time and energy can be related as energy and matter than time could create reality.

If anything is eternal it just might be time.

It certainly has existed and will exist in great abundance.

We are being who exist in time and find it hard to think of an existence without the dimension of time. Time could have started in the beginning however.

 

[Brian2]

No, it simply defies your ability to comprehend infinity

Infinite time in the past means that we would not be here yet. Infinite time in the future means we will never reach the end. Infinity is like a rainbow, the closer we get to it the further it moves away.

Not magic but a possibility in the quantum realm

But nothing is not nothing in that realm is it? A misnomer to confuse the lay person.

 

[PureX]

" until that unknown determinant becomes known to us."

And that has exactly happened, G-d conversed with many humans and let Himself known, I understand. Right, please ?

There isn't any way that a human can verify a 'God-experience', though. For us the presume it to be such, places it beyond the realm of our understanding.

 

[samtonga43]

I'm not a science nerd, but I read that energy has no beginning or end. It has always existed. It's not a mystery or unknown so far we know how it works from physics and so forth. We also know that different types of energy sustains and motivates life and things on earth (take that as ye will). So, in that respect, there is no beginning or end.

As for source, I wouldn't call energy source. It makes it sound like a fixed thing (or being, or so have you) that has a hand or guides the making of things. Instead, I'd say (if you see the stars for example) everything is shaped into and out of being. The formation of the physical universe. The creation of a child from sperm and egg. Things burst and things develop. Recycled. So, if there is a source it's the "act of" formation (playdoing I guess) not the act of creation.

As for it being a mystery, I disagree that the source (the act of) is a mystery. We do study the movement of what makes stars et cetera. So, it's a mystery on our part but not of itself; it just is.

As for it being magical, I would not say so. Mystery I understand to an extent since we don't know everything about how things form into and out of existence and the mechanisms of that motion, but magical? Sounds like a Disney movie. Fantasia comes to mind.

To me, the Energy that is God has no beginning or end. It has always existed. God IS.

 

[osgart]

" So natural laws are just right for us to be here. "

And who created the "Natural Laws", please? Right, please?

Regards

Life is not perfectly crafted for life by immutable laws. There is a lot of horrible and very poor aspects to existence.

Life is not governed by moral laws either. Is who even the right question? Then the who is not a perfect being who comes up with perfect laws.

 

[ChristineM]

Infinite time in the past means that we would not be here yet.

Does it? Pray tell how you figure that one out.

There are several hypothesis, those that consider multiverse have a very different opinion if time to those that consider a universe, in the true sense of the word. One thing is for sure, what were conditions, if any, prior to the BB are unknown.

Infinite time in the future means we will never reach the end.

Correct, our universe will die long after life dies. Will time continue?

But nothing is not nothing in that realm is it? A misnomer to confuse the lay person.

Wrong, here is one possibility
Spontaneous creation of the universe from nothing

 

[blü 2]

I would like to prove that there is no logic that can explain existence which will mean that not only are there no universal laws, but existence itself is magical and anything is possible and the world is not what we think it is.

Okay, you have my attention.

lets go to the source of all things. I am going to call this SOURCE. For creationists this SOURCE can be God and for others it can be the energy that made up the original big bang it really doesn't matter.

What we are debating is how did this SOURCE of everything come into existence?

I see only 2 possible ways SOURCE came into existence:

1. It has always existed with no beginning and no end. (defies all logic)
2. Magically popped into existence from nothingness. (defies all logic)

I have a favorite set of hypotheses about existence.

One of them ─ if I put it into your terms ─ is that the SOURCE is also the source of the dimensions, in that the dimensions are properties, qualities or effects of the SOURCE, and so time exists because the SOURCE does, and not vice versa.

These days I think of the SOURCE as the contents of the Big Bang, the sum of energy and the fundamental particles.

 

[paarsurrey]

" So natural laws* are just right for us to be here. "

And who created the "Natural Laws", please? Right, please?

*Natural Laws in and out of us are the creation of G-d, He claims it and there is no other claimant:

[30:31] فَاَقِمۡ وَجۡہَکَ لِلدِّیۡنِ حَنِیۡفًا ؕ فِطۡرَتَ اللّٰہِ الَّتِیۡ فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَیۡہَا ؕ لَا تَبۡدِیۡلَ لِخَلۡقِ اللّٰہِ ؕ ذٰلِکَ الدِّیۡنُ الۡقَیِّمُ ٭ۙ وَ لٰکِنَّ اَکۡثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا یَعۡلَمُوۡنَ ﴿٭ۙ۳۱﴾
So set thy face to the service of religion as one devoted to God. And follow the nature made by Allah — the nature in which He has created mankind. There is no altering the creation of Allah. That is the right religion. But most men know not.

Is there any other truthful claimant, please?
Right, please?

Regards

 

[Sunstone]

Which principle of logic does it violate?



Which principle of logic does it violate?

Is a lack of cause a violation of logic? or is it merely a violation of biases about physics?

Is an infinite regress a violation of logic? or is it mere the violation of biases against infinite regresses?

Brilliant questions!

 

[Polymath257]

Infinite time in the past means that we would not be here yet.

Why not?

This is an argument I have seen a lot and, frankly, it just seems like an expectation that the infinite acts like the finite. But, it doesn't.

At any point in time, an infinite time interval had already passed. There is no 'start'.

Infinite time in the future means we will never reach the end.

OK, so?

Infinity is like a rainbow, the closer we get to it the further it moves away.

So don't approach it. Maybe it just is.

But nothing is not nothing in that realm is it? A misnomer to confuse the lay person.

Let's see. No matter, no energy, no space, no time. We do assume the laws of physics. Is that nothing or something?

If anything, it is a LOT less than assuming an eternal deity to get things going. That isn't nothing either.

 

[Polymath257]

Infinite regress is a violation of logic. Cause and effect cannot have happened an infinite number of times to end up here.

Why not?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I would like to prove that there is no logic that can explain existence which will mean that not only are there no universal laws, but existence itself is magical and anything is possible and the world is not what we think it is.

It doesn't matter if you believe in creationism or evolution for this thought experiment lets go to the source of all things. I am going to call this SOURCE. For creationists this SOURCE can be God and for others it can be the energy that made up the original big bang it really doesn't matter.

What we are debating is how did this SOURCE of everything come into existence?

I see only 2 possible ways SOURCE came into existence:

1. It has always existed with no beginning and no end. (defies all logic)
2. Magically popped into existence from nothingness. (defies all logic)

Those are the only 2 options and don't you see that either way something amazing, magical, and beyond our wildest dreams is going on here that can't be explained or rationalized?

Existence itself is a sheer mystery!! If source is magical, and you are made from source, then you are magical too!

Don't you see the only logical thing is that there should have been nothingness, and nothing should have come from that nothingness, so there should be nothing, but that's not the case! You are living proof that all this is a miracle!

I agree, since you took as axiomatic (as did thread readers):

* logic exists
* truth exists
* existence exists

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

Infinite time in the past means that we would not be here yet. Infinite time in the future means we will never reach the end. Infinity is like a rainbow, the closer we get to it the further it moves away.

While I do agree with this argument to some extent, I feel like it contains a groundless assumptions that the laws, physics, working of our world was present in the world before big bang. How can we be so sure?

I usually have a problem with explaining this point clearly due to my lack of vocabulary and background knowledge [and scientific ignorance], but here's a simplest way I can get the message across. Think about it this way --- In video game world, you can save and load your progress, and do all sorts of things that completely defies logic, physics, logic, time, space etc. present in our real world. Is it absurd? Of course. But video game world is different from our world, they have their own unique workings. I don't think it's a wise move to apply the logic and working of our real life world to the video game world for they don't necessarily behave the same way.

But nothing is not nothing in that realm is it? A misnomer to confuse the lay person.

Well, I don't know about others, but I sure as hell am extremely ignorant about quantum mechanics [and science in general]. But from what I've heard, many others also are. The truth is, we don't know much about quantum realms to apply the same mathematical constructs we have created to deal with our realm.

"Nothing" and "somethings" are just our self-constructed concepts [based on the model of "reality" we perceive, and to work efficiently in this reality]. These [and other] concepts are our own imaginary concepts to conform with the model of reality we perceive. This model of reality that we perceive isn't necessary the same as quantum realm.

 

[cladking]

We are being who exist in time and find it hard to think of an existence without the dimension of time. Time could have started in the beginning however.

I'm suggesting time might exist by definition. Time existed before the beginning because time is the only constant. Time itself is eternal.

Time will always exist and has always existed. There is no reality without time.

Time is just as real as energy and matter and is related to energy just as energy is related to matter T = E x C ^ 2.

What isn't real is "space". This is a construct caused by the way we think and perceive. Since "space" isn't real neither are the constants and neither is the "speed of light". Not even light can move at the speed of light because mass approaches infinity. "Speed" has a different meaning anyway where space doesn't exist. For most practical purposes "space" becomes the rate of change in the time (C) between two objects.

I'm sure I don't know but I know we are hung up on something very fundamental. It appears our metaphysics has failed and we need new metaphysics. I believe the concept that Time is the only reality is somewhat similar to the metaphysics of ancient science since their premises mostly involved Time.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I see only 2 possible ways SOURCE came into existence:
1. It has always existed with no beginning and no end. (defies all logic)
2. Magically popped into existence from nothingness. (defies all logic)
Those are the only 2 options and don't you see that either way something amazing, magical, and beyond our wildest dreams is going on here that can't be explained or rationalized?

You may call it amazing, magical, miracle and beyond your wildest dreams, the simple thing is that it is something about which we do not know at present. It does not mean that it will always remain so. Who knew about virtual particles? Now those who have studied some basic science also know them. In a similar manner we will know about existence and non-existence in future. Asking for an answer just right now is a little premature. Let humanity wait for a hundred or two hundred years, and then check on this problem.

 

[cladking]

I believe the concept that Time is the only reality is somewhat similar to the metaphysics of ancient science since their premises mostly involved Time.

Time is that which prohibits two objects occupying the same space and "C" is what separates them. But "C" is much higher than the rate at which we measure light because light has a little mass.

Time is eternal and only fears man despite our fear of the pyramids. Individually we are nothing but working in concert we become a force of nature.

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

Life is not perfectly crafted for life by immutable laws. There is a lot of horrible and very poor aspects to existence.

What if life wasn't meant to be perfect? What if the purpose of crafting of life by immutable laws are to make sure that life is just sufficiently crafted for make survival [and/or even thriving] possible?

And how can we know that these perceptual horrible and poor aspects of existence aren't designed for specific purpose? Let's take human's inherent short-sightedness, for example. I don't know about others, but I think it's a poor aspect of our being. But what if this was done purposefully so to put human's foot on fire leading them to exert themselves in making tools that'll make up for that short-coming? Take human irrationality for example as well. Poor aspect, in my humble opinion. But what if this was purposefully designed to keep humans humble and grounded to the reality that they are far from being perfect, and they make mistakes [out of irrationality], and they'll keep seeking ways to rectify their affairs rather than becoming arrogant and stubborn, thinking they can't make mistakes?

Life is not governed by moral laws either.

I don't think I agree with the statement there are no moral laws. I've personally witnessed the law of karma [and many other spiritual laws] play out right in front of my eyes over and over again. So have many others. But these are just anecdotes. Anecdotes aren't evidence.

However, even if I agree with you here, I'd like to point out that we don't know this either. Pretty much like we don't know if God truly exists. For that, we would need to be omniscient to know for sure that moral laws are absent in reality. Think about it this way --- Suppose I go back in times 6000 years ago, and talk about black holes to the people who don't have any knowledge about black holes, they'd say --- There are no black holes. That's not true now, is it? They are making an assumption. We now have the necessary means to observe black holes. Same can be applied to the moral laws. Maybe there are morals laws subliminally governing our life, we just don't know about them yet.

Is who even the right question?

I would think so. [If we assume that there are spiritual laws in place] That's because it usually requires a sentient, intelligent, creative, efficient agent to achieve the end result of [for example] karma with perfect precision.

Then the who is not a perfect being who comes up with perfect laws.

According to our limited thinking. Same applies to atheists as well. We can't possibly judge God's character, thinking, wisdom when we can't even accurately get far simpler things right [like many unsolved earthly phenomenas, psychology of certain individuals etc.]. God may be perfect, He may seem imperfect because of our misapprehension of reality.

 

[FocusedIntent]

So you are saying that either God has always existed as the source of everything or everything has always existed as the source of itself.

Basically yes that's it! This sounds so simple, but most people fail to see the deeper implications of this. Existence is not adhering to our logic or reasoning, literally anything is possible we truly are living in a magical place full of wonder and mystery. Anything that we call a law or immutable is not really a law or immutable, existence can change anything at any time. Things only appear to be immutable from our limited perspective, but they truly are not and existence proves this.

Why not?

You already know the answer to this bud. Go to the first cause and what caused it?

I'm suggesting time might exist by definition. Time existed before the beginning because time is the only constant. Time itself is eternal.

Time will always exist and has always existed. There is no reality without time.

I respect your opinion you seem to know a lot about what science believes about time. However, I don't think there is such a thing as time. There is only the everlasting present moment and it is ever changing just like a vibration can't stand still.

You may call it amazing, magical, miracle and beyond your wildest dreams, the simple thing is that it is something about which we do not know at present. It does not mean that it will always remain so. Who knew about virtual particles? Now those who have studied some basic science also know them. In a similar manner we will know about existence and non-existence in future. Asking for an answer just right now is a little premature. Let humanity wait for a hundred or two hundred years, and then check on this problem.

To be honest I feel sorry for you. You could witness a miracle with your own eyes and you would deny it saying well maybe in a thousand years when I'm dead they will be able to explain it.....

I don't think I agree with the statement there are no moral laws. I've personally witnessed the law of karma [and many other spiritual laws] play out right in front of my eyes over and over again. So have many others. But these are just anecdotes. Anecdotes aren't evidence.

This is quite off topic, but I will talk to you about Karma. I have studied with Buddhists, and did you know that one of the last teachings for them when they are ready to transcend is to let go of their beliefs in Karma? If they continued believing in Karma they would never escape it and would continue incarnating back here forever to keep perpetually repaying their Karma. That makes sense if you think about it because just by being alive you are consuming flesh of other living beings and so there is no way to ever repay that debt. Every time you would incarnate back to repay old debt you would always acquire new debt no matter how much you lived like a saint.

The truth is that you don't know how powerful you are. Your belief in something can make it real. Karma only exists for you if you believe in it. There are no moral laws because there is nobody that is going to judge you except for yourself.

Morals are like time, they are just man made concepts. Morals were invented by humans because they help us survive here, but you can clearly see that the animals don't follow our morals.