Proving the existence of Allah (swt) to an atheist

[Dirty Penguin]

look i can't go into animals. there might be an answer but you as a non muslim can't comprehend it. it will be a waste of time. so lets focus on humans first OK.

You have no idea what I know of muslims and islam. It is difficult for you to convince me of your way of life because I don't observe the natural world with blinders on. I don't believe in gods.....and you will be hard pressed to show any evidence of a god's existence......nor do I care to try and convince you gods don't....You will in no doubt refer to the quran thus our debates will be futile and circular.....because I'm an atheist does not mean half your job is done and now you have to convince a god (namely "Allah) exist to me....I take issue with even the way you started the thread...because it came off as if you were lying or at least structuring your wording like the late Ahmed Deedat.....

 

[tumbleweed41]

show us where he said that.

Adnan Oktar (Hurun Yahya) in court testimony after his HQ's were raided by Turkish police.
Most of the females (girls really) were under the age 18, (Oktar is his middle 40’s) and they claimed that they had been having sexual intercourse with Oktar and members of his sect. In his testimony, Oktar claimed that he had committed no crime as the intercourse was consensual, allowed under Turkish law. Further, Oktar insisted that this intercourse was also religiously permissible under Islam because he and his followers did not have a ‘real sexual intercourse with these girls’. He and his followers claimed that they had only engaged in ‘anal and oral’ sex. They preferred this kinds of sexual intercourse since according to Koran, he claimed, these acts are not impermissible outside of marriage. According to their interpretation ‘vaginal’ intercourse was ‘haram’ but ‘anal and oral intercourse’ was ‘halal’ when not married.

 

[Venatoris]

there might be an answer but you as a non muslim can't comprehend it. it will be a waste of time.

Just out of polite curiosity, Can you name a single person that disagrees with you whom you would consider to be your intellectual equal?

 

[Gharib]

You have no idea what I know of muslims and islam. It is difficult for you to convince me of your way of life because I don't observe the natural world with blinders on. I don't believe in gods.....and you will be hard pressed to show any evidence of a god's existence......nor do I care to try and convince you gods don't....You will in no doubt refer to the quran thus our debates will be futile and circular.....because I'm an atheist does not mean half your job is done and now you have to convince a god (namely "Allah) exist to me....I take issue with even the way you started the thread...because it came off as if you were lying or at least structuring your wording like the late Ahmed Deedat.....

darn, this post seems like a poem to me, i just finished reading one.

you are right, if i go on to speak about animal homsexuality (which i really doubt) then i would have to give islamic views as to why it may be happening. hence hence, i said lets not speak about that. get it now?

but if you want to speak about human homosexuality, then no problem. i will not use anything from the quran nor hadith, that is not evidence when provided to you, it is just a statement. so it would be pointless.

i will however make logical and true statements about how homosexuality occurs and that it is a choice. i take it the sneak preview i gave about my understanding of this has some basis in scientifically proven studies (ie a cat will think it's a dog if it grows up with dogs) and that you accept them if i provide evidence of such things being true.

do we have a deal or not?

 

[Gharib]

Just out of polite curiosity, Can you name a single person that disagrees with you whom you would consider to be your intellectual equal?

i don't know. like i said, i haven't looked up homosexuality appart from the article i've posted earlier in the thread. i don't know what scientists are saying about it.

but if you really want an asnwer then i guess the person would have to be a Gaydar who isn't gay and give logical and reasonable explanations against what i say. it is only fair that we are both equal. don't you recon?

 

[Gharib]

Adnan Oktar (Hurun Yahya) in court testimony after his HQ's were raided by Turkish police.
Most of the females (girls really) were under the age 18, (Oktar is his middle 40’s) and they claimed that they had been having sexual intercourse with Oktar and members of his sect. In his testimony, Oktar claimed that he had committed no crime as the intercourse was consensual, allowed under Turkish law. Further, Oktar insisted that this intercourse was also religiously permissible under Islam because he and his followers did not have a ‘real sexual intercourse with these girls’. He and his followers claimed that they had only engaged in ‘anal and oral’ sex. They preferred this kinds of sexual intercourse since according to Koran, he claimed, these acts are not impermissible outside of marriage. According to their interpretation ‘vaginal’ intercourse was ‘haram’ but ‘anal and oral intercourse’ was ‘halal’ when not married.

the hadith i provided says quite the opposite. and since Mr Oktar has not provided any hadith or verse that permits it in support of his claim appart from his oppinion, the hadith dissproves his claim.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

darn, this post seems like a poem to me, i just finished reading one.

you are right, if i go on to speak about animal homsexuality (which i really doubt) then i would have to give islamic views as to why it may be happening. hence hence, i said lets not speak about that. get it now?

but if you want to speak about human homosexuality, then no problem. i will not use anything from the quran nor hadith, that is not evidence when provided to you, it is just a statement. so it would be pointless.

i will however make logical and true statements about how homosexuality occurs and that it is a choice. i take it the sneak preview i gave about my understanding of this has some basis in scientifically proven studies (ie a cat will think it's a dog if it grows up with dogs) and that you accept them if i provide evidence of such things being true.

do we have a deal or not?

I'm not even that interested in speaking on homosexuality.....rather....would like to know what you hope to achieve with this thread. Judging by the title you hope to "prove" the existence of Allah.

I suspect this will be a difficult task for you. Just like Christianity and Judaism...where would you be without your book(s)?

And you're correct.....trying to prove god with a book will have you spinning in circles here. We are familiar with your scripture as well as others and find them inadequate to our way of living.

But by all means give it your best shot.....You have claimed you can "prove it"...Now it is truly on you to do so.

 

[Gharib]

I'm not even that interested in speaking on homosexuality.....rather....would like to know what you hope to achieve with this thread. Judging by the title you hope to "prove" the existence of Allah.

I suspect this will be a difficult task for you. Just like Christianity and Judaism...where would you be without your book(s)?

And you're correct.....trying to prove god with a book will have you spinning in circles here. We are familiar with your scripture as well as others and find them inadequate to our way of living.

But by all means give it your best shot.....You have claimed you can "prove it"...Now it is truly on you to do so.

if you don't want to discuss homosexuality then no problem.

as for the thread, it was oppened in the islam forum, it wasn't up for debate nor to convince atheists about Allah. i can't make anyone accept Allah, that is beyond me. but after the thread was moved then everyone came in and started debating. if you want to accpet Allah then good for you, may you be guided if not then may Allah guide you some day.

 

[Venatoris]

i will however make logical and true statements about how homosexuality occurs and that it is a choice. i take it the sneak preview i gave about my understanding of this has some basis in scientifically proven studies (ie a cat will think it's a dog if it grows up with dogs) and that you accept them if i provide evidence of such things being true.

This will probably be disregarded as it is only a story of personal experience(I don't have any documentation to back it up). I can say for certain that your cat thinks it is a dog idea is entirely false. Where I live we have a lot of farm country. I know a great number of people who live on farms(my uncle being one such individual). He has always had dogs on his farm which is not uncommon and stray cats are inevitable. He does not get his dogs fixed so every few years he ends up with a litter of pups. As it happens, one year after one of his dogs had given birth he found a litter of newborn kittens under his porch. The mother was gone and when he found them only two of the four were alive. He put them in with the puppies and the mother dog nursed them. One of the two died a few days later. The other kitten survived and grew up amidst the puppies but did not take on the personality traits of a dog and most certainly did not think it was a dog. This is not an uncommon occurance in cattle country. Around here it's common knowledge that a cat is cat and a dog is a dog, regardless of the company it keeps.

Take what you will from this but don't expect me to believe your ridiculous claim.

 

[tumbleweed41]

the hadith i provided says quite the opposite. and since Mr Oktar has not provided any hadith or verse that permits it in support of his claim appart from his oppinion, the hadith dissproves his claim.

I believe the reasoning behind this is that a strict interpretation of 'zina' is the penetration of the female sex organ with the male sex organ.
And the Prophet specifically mentions...
"Allah does not have mercy on a man who carries out anal intercourse with his wife.
(Ibn Majah Bayhaqi)
Therefore, by Harun's followers reasoning, since the actual female sex organ is not penetrated, they did not commit 'zina', and since the girls were not their wives, the anal and oral sex was not Haram.

 

[kai]

I see the vortex at work here , and here's why:


what non Muslims must understand is that once you submit to Islam then any evidence put forward that contradicts the Quran is false whatever that evidence may be whether its written ,video, or staring you in the face.

Its false or wrong or fabricated because you have submitted totally to Allah, and the Quran is the unalterable word of god himself. Its an impenetrable veil that can only be removed or even pushed aside by the wearer.

 

[Gharib]

I see the vortex at work here , and here's why:


what non Muslims must understand is that once you submit to Islam then any evidence put forward that contradicts the Quran is false whatever that evidence may be whether its written ,video, or staring you in the face.

Its false or wrong or fabricated because you have submitted totally to Allah, and the Quran is the unalterable word of god himself. Its an impenetrable veil that can only be removed or even pushed aside by the wearer.

actually it seems that way kai.

you see muslims don't rely only on some scientist to prove everything "scientifically" using some magial tools. it doesn't work that way. if you think it does then please show me the scientific evidence that there is no life after death or that there is. either one, you choose.

Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):
Surah 2. The Cow

1. A.L.M.
2. This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
3. Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;

just cos we have eyes that doesn't mean we can see everything, just cos we have ears it dosn't mean we can hear everything, and just cos we have a mouth it doesn't mean everyone can hear or see us.

good post though.

 

[kai]

actually it seems that way kai.

you see muslims don't rely only on some scientist to prove everything "scientifically" using some magial tools. it doesn't work that way. if you think it does then please show me the scientific evidence that there is no life after death or that there is. either one, you choose.

Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):
<H1>Surah 2. The Cow


1. A.L.M.
2. This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah. 3. Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;

just cos we have eyes that doesn't mean we can see everything, just cos we have ears it dosn't mean we can hear everything, and just cos we have a mouth it doesn't mean everyone can hear or see us.

good post though.
</H1>

In fact your whole understanding of the universe and everything in it is in the Quran and you have no need for anything else.

 

[Gharib]

I believe the reasoning behind this is that a strict interpretation of 'zina' is the penetration of the female sex organ with the male sex organ.
And the Prophet specifically mentions...
"Allah does not have mercy on a man who carries out anal intercourse with his wife.
(Ibn Majah Bayhaqi)
Therefore, by Harun's followers reasoning, since the actual female sex organ is not penetrated, they did not commit 'zina', and since the girls were not their wives, the anal and oral sex was not Haram.

you are quick at jumping into conclussions:

There are many saheeh ahaadeeth which show that anal intercourse is haraam, such as the following:
1 – It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The one who has intercourse with his wife in her back passage has disavowed himself of that which was revealed to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).” Narrated by Abu Dawood (3904); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

2 – It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah will not look at a man who has intercourse with a woman in her back passage.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi (1165); classed as saheeh by Ibn Daqeeq al-‘Eid in al-Ilmaam (2/660) and by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

3 – It was narrated that Khuzaymah ibn Thaabit (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah is not too shy to tell the truth” three times. “Do not have intercourse with women in their back passages.” Narrated by Ibn Maajah (1924); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Ibn Maajah.

hope that helps.

 

[Commoner]

you are quick at jumping into conclussions:

There are many saheeh ahaadeeth which show that anal intercourse is haraam, such as the following:
1 &#8211; It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: &#8220;The one who has intercourse with his wife in her back passage has disavowed himself of that which was revealed to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).&#8221; Narrated by Abu Dawood (3904); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

2 &#8211; It was narrated that Ibn &#8216;Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: &#8220;Allaah will not look at a man who has intercourse with a woman in her back passage.&#8221; Narrated by al-Tirmidhi (1165); classed as saheeh by Ibn Daqeeq al-&#8216;Eid in al-Ilmaam (2/660) and by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

3 &#8211; It was narrated that Khuzaymah ibn Thaabit (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: &#8220;Allaah is not too shy to tell the truth&#8221; three times. &#8220;Do not have intercourse with women in their back passages.&#8221; Narrated by Ibn Maajah (1924); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Ibn Maajah.

hope that helps.

2. Khuzaymah Ibn Thabit (may Allah be pleased with him) also reported that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Allah is not too shy to tell you the truth: Do not have sex with your wives in the anus." (Reported by Ahmad, 5/213.)

3. Ibn `Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) quoted the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) as saying, &#8220;Allah will not look at a man who has intercourse with his wife in her anus.&#8221;

*source: islamonline.net

This seems to differ from what you've said. What's up?

 

[Gharib]

2. Khuzaymah Ibn Thabit (may Allah be pleased with him) also reported that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Allah is not too shy to tell you the truth: Do not have sex with your wives in the anus." (Reported by Ahmad, 5/213.)

3. Ibn `Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) quoted the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) as saying, “Allah will not look at a man who has intercourse with his wife in her anus.”

*source: islamonline.net

This seems to differ from what you've said.

can i have the actual link, thanks.

 

[Gharib]

In fact your whole understanding of the universe and everything in it is in the Quran and you have no need for anything else.

i've never said that the universe and everything in it is explained in the quran and we don't need anything else.

if you think this is what i've said then please show me.

 

[Commoner]

can i have the actual link, thanks.

Hmmm, I think this was it.

And what was the source of your quotes?

 

[Gharib]

Hmmm, I think this was it.

And what was the source of your quotes?

how funny, you have taken the hadith from an answer that says anal sex is forbiden. didn't you pay attention to the rest of the asnwer?

my source was from Islam Question and Answer

 

[Commoner]

how funny, you have taken the hadith from an answer that says anal sex is forbiden. didn't you pay attention to the rest of the asnwer?

my source was from Islam Question and Answer

I wasn't even arguing a point, I was just checking your quotes. I'm not in the business of arguing the validity of a position based on religious texts. I care about as much about what scripture says on the topic of sex that I care about what "Lord of the Rings" says about hobbits. It can be entertaining at times, but that's about it.

However, I have noted that this seems to be a particulary contraversial topic in Islam and not all muslims agree.