Proving the existence of Allah (swt) to an atheist

[Commoner]

how funny, you have taken the hadith from an answer that says anal sex is forbiden. didn't you pay attention to the rest of the asnwer?

my source was from Islam Question and Answer

BTW, I was wondering, do animals have free will according to the Qur'an?

 

[Gharib]

BTW, I was wondering, do animals have free will according to the Qur'an?

no. only humans do
i think i know why you've asked. i am 100% sure.

but lets not get too confident, right.

 

[Commoner]

no. only humans do
i think i know why you've asked. i am 100% sure.

but lets not get too confident, right.

I think there's also a good reason why you know why I asked.

Since we have shown you videos of animals having homosexual sex (and there are plenty more if those particular ones weren't to your liking), how can you reconcile that with what the Qur'an says about "fitrah" - the natural disposition you seem to be using in your arguments when you claim that homosexuality is not natural.

I see two possible explanations, both leave you with the Qur'an contradicting itself. Either animals have a choice and sometimes choose homosexuality, or there is no absolute natural disposition.

 

[Gharib]

I think there's also a good reason why you know why I asked.

Since we have shown you videos of animals having homosexual sex (and there are plenty more if those particular ones weren't to your liking), how can you reconcile that with what the Qur'an says about "fitrah" - the natural disposition you seem to be using in your arguments when you claim that homosexuality is not natural.

I see two possible explanations, both leave you with the Qur'an contradicting itself. Either animals have a choice and sometimes choose homosexuality, or there is no absolute natural disposition.

i knew it. unfortunately you are wrong.

i can explain it, however i myself am not a scholar to comment on this, so i nor anyone else can give their own thoughts about this, it has to be what islam says, not what i say. and you being a non muslim will not accept the answer as i have mentioned a few times before. so like i've said before i can prove that humans choose to be homosexual, but i can't comment on the animals as i have not studied the Quran nor the hadith and sunnah of the prophet.

 

[Kerr]

then why did your parents have to take care of you once you were born?
why did they educate you the way they wanted and not the way you wanted?
why didn't you educate yourself?

My parents have no moral authority over me, nor do they have the right to dictate my life.

thats called denial of truth and reality.

Not really, that attitude tend to be help by people that are in denial.

 

[Kerr]

actually lets not go into it that deep. how about i say to you i dislike homosexuality cos they choose to be like that and lie about it by saying it is ganetical rather than a choice.

That´s it? You think it is a disease that should be "cured" for THAT reason :areyoucra? No offence, but that sounds rediculous. I much rather go in deep and to the truth then to stay on that level.

 

[Gharib]

My parents have no moral authority over me, nor do they have the right to dictate my life.

so i'm guessing the moment you were born you told your parents to lay off your back cos you are a being of yourself.

Not really, that attitude tend to be help by people that are in denial.

sorry i don't get this

 

[Commoner]

i knew it. unfortunately you are wrong.

i can explain it, however i myself am not a scholar to comment on this, so i nor anyone else can give their own thoughts about this, it has to be what islam says, not what i say. and you being a non muslim will not accept the answer as i have mentioned a few times before. so like i've said before i can prove that humans choose to be homosexual, but i can't comment on the animals as i have not studied the Quran nor the hadith and sunnah of the prophet.

Well clearly you can't prove it. If you are simply unwilling to prove it, you should not claim that you can.

I could agree that I would not accept something to be true simply because it is in a religious text - for that, I would have to be a muslim. However, I will except that the Qur'an does not contradict itsef - if you can explain the contradiction I've pointed out. I don't need to be a muslim to do that.

So to reiterate the contradiction:

1. Animals have sex with partners of the same sex.
2. The Qur'an states that there is a natural disposition (fitrah) which Allaah has created in mankind and animals.
3. Animals have no free will, therefore they cannot choose to go against the fitrah.

Either there is no such natural disposition (or at least, it includes homosexuality) or animals have free will. Explain the contradiction, please.

 

[Gharib]

Well clearly you can't prove it. If you are simply unwilling to prove it, you should not claim that you can.

I could agree that I would not accept something to be true simply because it is in a religious text - for that, I would have to be a muslim. However, I will except that the Qur'an does not contradict itsef - if you can explain the contradiction I've pointed out. I don't need to be a muslim to do that.

So to reiterate the contradiction:

1. Animals have sex with partners of the same sex.
2. The Qur'an states that there is a natural disposition (fitrah) which Allaah has created in mankind and animals.
3. Animals have no free will, therefore they cannot choose to go against the fitrah.

Either there is no such natural disposition (or at least, it includes homosexuality) or animals have free will. Explain the contradiction, please.

unfortunately for a second time, I CAN'T COMMENT.

if i say something you may take it as true (which i doubt), but it may end up not to be true because i'm not a scholar. you can go on all you want with this, but consider yourself answered.

 

[Gharib]

That´s it? You think it is a disease that should be "cured" for THAT reason :areyoucra? No offence, but that sounds rediculous. I much rather go in deep and to the truth then to stay on that level.

i don't like homosexuality cos people choose to be so and deny it when asked. is that good?

 

[Kerr]

so i'm guessing the moment you were born you told your parents to lay off your back cos you are a being of yourself.

Do you know the difference between a guardian and an owner?

 

[Kerr]

sorry i don't get this

Fanatics tend to say things like that, and if anyone is in denial it is them (not saying you are a fanatic, by the way).

 

[Kerr]

i don't like homosexuality cos people choose to be so and deny it when asked. is that good?

Why does it matter if it is a choice or not? Do you think that, if it is a choice, that they are aware of it?

 

[Gharib]

Do you know the difference between a guardian and an owner?

yes.

a guardian says do this......?, it's for your benefit.

an owner says do this..........?, it's for my benefit.

am i right?

 

[Gharib]

Why does it matter if it is a choice or not? Do you think that, if it is a choice, that they are aware of it?

it does matter.

don't know if they are aware of it, it's about someone explaining to them how it works and how they get there that would give them a sense of wanting to change back.

all they need is a heterosexual that understands how it works without ever being a homosexual. does that sort of help?

 

[Gharib]

Fanatics tend to say things like that, and if anyone is in denial it is them (not saying you are a fanatic, by the way).

thats what you were saying in the other post. don't worry about it. lets continue with the important stuff.

 

[Commoner]

unfortunately for a second time, I CAN'T COMMENT.

if i say something you may take it as true (which i doubt), but it may end up not to be true because i'm not a scholar. you can go on all you want with this, but consider yourself answered.

I do consider myself answered.

Esalam, what you've shown is that you have blind faith. You see the contradictions in the Qur'an and you cannot explain them, yet you still choose to regard it as infallible all the same. The least that you should do is not claim that it is the infallible word of god, untill you have properly convinced yourself that no contradictions exist. And what you should especially avoid is making judgements on the basis of someone elses interpretation of a text that you don't even understand yourself (neither the text itself nor the interpretation). If you understood it, you could explain it without a problem.

So you are doing an injustice to homosexuals by claiming that it is a choice. You have no basis for what you're saying, since you don't understand the issue neither in the terms of science nor in the terms of your own religion. You should either learn about it before making claims, or simply shut up about it. :areyoucra

 

[Kerr]

yes.

a guardian says do this......?, it's for your benefit.

an owner says do this..........?, it's for my benefit.

am i right?

A guardian is guarding me, they do not have the right to do some things. If my parents for example abused me they would have lost their right to be my guardians. It is my life, they just helped me evolve into the man I am.

An owner would have the authority over me as if I where a slave. Which I am not, and nor to I believe such a thing can exist, because in my view slavery, in any form, is wrong.

 

[Kerr]

it does matter.

don't know if they are aware of it, it's about someone explaining to them how it works and how they get there that would give them a sense of wanting to change back.

all they need is a heterosexual that understands how it works without ever being a homosexual. does that sort of help?

No, they are not aware of it. I have my own experiences, gay people are not aware of the so called choice you say. And you have yet to explain why it matters if it is a choice.

 

[Gharib]

I do consider myself answered.

Esalam, what you've shown is that you have blind faith. You see the contradictions in the Qur'an and you cannot explain them, yet you still choose to regard it as infallible all the same. The least that you should do is not claim that it is the infallible word of god, untill you have properly convinced yourself that no contradictions exist. And what you should especially avoid is making judgements on the basis of someone elses interpretation of a text that you don't even understand yourself (neither the text itself nor the interpretation). If you understood it, you could explain it without a problem.

So you are doing an injustice to homosexuals by claiming that it is a choice. You have no basis for what you're saying, since you don't understand the issue neither in the terms of science nor in the terms of your own religion. You should either learn about it before making claims, or simply shut up about it. :areyoucra

i see an error in your post. if i was to convince myself that the quran is error free, then that means i would be shut to ideas put forwad by others in this case you.

i know how to answer you, but the fact that i am not a scholar doesn't permit me to do so. GET IT???? i doubt you do but what the heck.