PureX
Veteran Member
Yes, atheist 'believers' as well.
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Proving The Existence of Your God to Others
- Thread starter SalixIncendium
- Start date
PureX
Veteran Member
No, I mean anyone with a brain that isn't trapped in some biased "belief" or other about God or existence.
Dao Hao Now
Active Member
Given that this a debate forum….. it seems only natural.
In the real world, I couldn’t care less about one’s belief in the existence of God unless and until they act to compel others to be subjected to the consequences of that belief.
Which unfortunately occurs far too often.
I can't prove to you that I exist. There is evidence for me though. To be fair, I sometimes wonder about that evidence myself.
I don't know of anything that unambiguously demonstrates what I believe for others to see for themselves.
Dao Hao Now
Active Member
Evidence; perhaps……
Adequate evidence; no
How might one, for instance, rule out the placebo effect?
No.
For one thing "Blind Men and the Elephant".
For another as a former atheist, I know that proving is impossible. .
For another, believing can be incredibly superficial. I know atheists who are more loving (the central commandment of Christianity) than those who call themselves Christians. So who is the real "Christian" in that case - the one who fulfills the commandment to be loving or the one who asserts that he believes?
Finally given how far I am personally from my ideal, I have no business trying to prove something to others.
No not necessary because I'm a universalist who believes that salvation will be given to anyone who desires it in the afterlife. No belief on their part is required.
I also don't believe there is any reliable evidence for God so I have nothing to convince people with even if I did have that desire (which I don't).
However if I think your God concept (where applicable) or other belief is actively the cause of demonstrable harm to others in this life then I will set about trying to disprove your God concept or other belief.
Dao Hao Now
Active Member
That would leave no clear cause and therefore would be inadequate evidence for either……
What do they believe that is incorrect?
This is a complicated question. Let us say that a group of theists make public policy decisions based on their beliefs that do affect others in a big way. Then these others do have a right to question the basis of such beliefs, and the group does have the responsibility of justifying those beliefs.
This is true whenever a specific ideology has public policy consequences.
On a personal level, I welcome the opportunity when someone asks me to justify my worldview to them, as discussion and reflection on discussions is what helps me sharpen my views. But I do not go out of my way to justify them without anybody asking.
An interesting perspective can be had from the tradition of debate in ancient India
Debates in ancient India - Wikipedia
PureX
Veteran Member
Yes, atheist 'believers' as well.
I didn't say they were "incorrect". I was pointing out that many atheists are also "believers" that don't know what they believe or why. And then become shocked when someone calls them out on it on open debate.
When it comes to station of divinity, it means these beings ought to be followed. Even exalted souls let alone the station of divinity, require proof. You can't assert that so and so is exalted without proof. The reason is because so and so will then be called to be followed. And if is false, then he can lead others astray. Mohammad (s) claiming to be a Messenger of God requires proof. Ali (a) succession requires proof. Most people don't accept proofs when they demand them and standards on the ones who have proofs are made higher then the ones who do not by humans. Yet they hold these high standards with respect to those who have them, yet do not even demand proofs for who they follow.
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
No. I don't find it necessary to prove to atheists or theists who believe in other gods that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob exists.
However, I do think it's necessary to correct misconceptions about the Jewish God concept when they are posted online. I think that there are many theists who inevitably will struggle with their beliefs, and struggle with understanding God as described in the bible. The atheist "talking points" which are posted online are often false and misleading. It's not fair to those individuals who are seeking or struggling to only see the incorrect or misleading information. They should have the benefit of having good accurate information. My correcting that false information or providing additional detail is intended to help those who are seeking or struggling with their faith make informed choices about what they believe and/or how they understand reality. Even of the seeker is not posting actively, they may be browsing or lurking. I am posting for them.
Although, I cannot deny the satisfaction I receive when I reinforce my own beliefs by researching and debunking anti-theist and anti-religous rhetoric.
Yet given your typical disdain for atheists, and even those who accept science, you must think the are wrong about the issue of gods existing.
Do atheists get shocked? What do atheists get wrong that the are called out on?
PureX
Veteran Member
As I have stated many, many times; I do not disdain atheists nor those that "accept science". I disdain the dishonesty of some self-proclaimed atheists that are nothing more than anti-religious zealots that constantly spew their false ideal of science as the singular source of all truth and reality because they think it negates the reality of God.
Real atheists are not shocked or confused by legitimate criticism. But these phony ant-religious zealots clearly are because they are 'true believers' in their own biased and irrational views. Just as the religious zealots they are constantly condemning, are.
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Personally, I have never ever attempted to try to prove any of my beliefs or non-beliefs concerning such matters, and being on RF has more or less confirmed my view that most people will believe whatever they want, and usually seeking evidence to confirm such beliefs, rather than doing the opposite - that is seeking evidence that might disprove such beliefs. Having any such beliefs from childhood, to me, seems an added burden when it is often so difficult to release oneself from these. RF is about the only time and place where I even come across religious beliefs - and I have learnt quite a lot.
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That may be what it means to deify something in some cultures, but this is not a universal. And within religions for which "following" the gods is applicable, what precisely that means varies tremendously as acts of worship vary tremendously. Commitments to the gods vary from person to person and and culture to culture.
Okay, so for the vast majority of gods that don't "call" for "followers" or expect to be "followed," none of this applies then.
One begins to notice your innate assumption that everybody, everywhere who does not see things as you do lacks a properly functioning brain. You are not the epitome of your species, the shining examplar of homo sapiens. And all too frequently, you're not even nice about it. That need to belittle others betrays a deeper uncertainty -- one you may not have examined as you perhaps ought.