Psalm 22 is about David, not Jesus?

[Buddha Dharma]

That it was not prophetic when written does not exclude the fact that it was understood by those Jews who believed in Jesus and searched their Scripture for the answers to who and why of Jesus. They found those answers in their own Scripture. That does not mean that was the intent of the biblical author when he wrote.

That's an interesting perspective. Mind expounding it more?

 

[pearl]

That's an interesting perspective. Mind expounding it more?

By all human standards Jesus was a failure. He was crucified as a rebel rouser by Pilate and as another pesky troublemaker, as the prophets before, for the Jewish establishment. The Jesus renewal movement was dead and his followers dispersed. That is until, as Scripture has it, the events of Pentecost. Convinced the Crucified lives, that God raised this man Jesus from death and remembering His teaching, they search their Scripture for the purpose. It is true that when Christians today read the OT it is done so with the 'mind of Christ' and not what might have been the intended meaning of the author. The suffering servant of Is becomes Jesus, the author probably intended Israel itself to be the suffering servant.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I believe it is most likely a combination of a lament by David and prophecy of Jesus. I believe the following verses would be a stretch for David:
Ps 22:14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint: My heart is like wax; It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; And my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; And thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: A company of evil-doers have inclosed me; They pierced my hands and my feet.

Poetic language for sure, yet for the same reason you use for it not to apply to David it can't be applied to Jesus.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Psalm 22 is a famous example of Christians referring back to the Hebrew Bible for messianic prophecies.

In this Psalm, we find the author lamenting that God has forsaken him and doesn't help him. That his enemies surround him, and so on...


Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from my cries of anguish?

(6-8) But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by everyone, despised by the people. All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads. “He trusts in the Lord,” they say, “let the Lord rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.”


As we proceed on, the author says that like lions at his feet, his tormentors surround him. They divide his garments among themselves, and so on. See: Psalms 22

Christians have long pointed to these verses as a prophecy of Jesus by David. However, what if they are about David himself?

There was an episode very like the events described in David's own life, when his son Absalom usurped the throne of Israel. David and his loyalists had to go on the run, always pursued by Absalom's loyalists. Certainly, David's 'royal garments' were being divided among his enemies, who had usurped his administration.

Why should we infer Jesus from this passage as Christians wish us to?

Psalms 22:6-8 finds sufficient explanation in the following, does it not?


2 Samuel 16:5-10 As King David approached Bahurim, a man from the same clan as Saul’s family came out from there. His name was Shimei son of Gera, and he cursed as he came out. He pelted David and all the king’s officials with stones, though all the troops and the special guard were on David’s right and left.

As he cursed, Shimei said, “Get out, get out, you murderer, you scoundrel! The Lord has repaid you for all the blood you shed in the household of Saul, in whose place you have reigned. The Lord has given the kingdom into the hands of your son Absalom. You have come to ruin because you are a murderer!”

Then Abishai son of Zeruiah said to the king, “Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Let me go over and cut off his head.”

But the king said, “What does this have to do with you, you sons of Zeruiah? If he is cursing because the Lord said to him, ‘Curse David,’ who can ask, ‘Why do you do this?’”


We find here I think, not only sufficient explanation for much of Psalm 22, but we also see that David had a notion of righteous suffering. David thought that perhaps God had given him over to suffer. This kind of vicarious suffering is applied to Israel itself in Isaiah 53, which Christians also infer to be about Jesus.

Do you think that saying Psalm 22 is about David fleeing Absalom is a stretch, or the Christian reading back into it much later is?

I suppose it's the similarities between the two images that would lead one to see it as a prophesy.

 

[Redemptionsong]

This refers to David not being the one to build the Temple. It mentions nothing about a man not being able to build the Temple, you have just inserted this with no basis. G-d instructed people specifically to build His House. See the book of Ezechiel where G-d gives the prophet specific instructions on how the build the Third Temple. In Exodus 25:8 G-d specifically commands that the Israelites build Him a sanctuary and then goes on to describe how to make the objects that will fill the sanctuary (the Temple).

In 1 Chronicles we learn why HaShem never let David build the Temple:

1 Chron 28:2-3:

‘Hear me, my brothers and my people. I had planned to build a house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the L-rd, for the footstool of our G-d; and I made preparations for building. But G-d said to me, “You shall not build a house for my name, for you are a warrior and have shed blood.”

It's not because he's a man.

So you think that Solomon was without sin!? Did God allow Solomon to build his Temple because Solomon was worthy?

In 1 Kings 6:2 it says, 'And the house which king Solomon built for the LORD,' [Who built it? Was it Solomon or God?]
1 Kings 7:1, 'But Solomon was building his own house thirteen years, and he finished all his house.' [Was this HIS OWN HOUSE, or was it GOD'S HOUSE?]

Interestingly, Solomon prays these words, 'But will God indeed dwell on earth? behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? (1 Kings 8:27)

Yes, David's Kingdom/seed will be established forever.

Regarding verse 11:

And even from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. And the L-rd has told you that the L-rd will make for you a house.

G-d here is referring to the royal household. As in English we say the House of Hanover etc. The current British royal family is called The House of Windsor. The next verse logically follows this as HaShem is then talking about 'raising your offspring up after you', as in a royal household.

When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish His kingdom.

Here He is still talking to David, with the offpsring/seed being Solomon. Following this, verse 13 is regarding Solomon:

He [the offspring, Solomon] shall build a House for My Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom [the royal line of David] forever. I will be to him a father, and he shall be to Me a son; so that when he goes astray I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the sons of Adam.

He afterwards contrasts Solomon with Shaul in verse 15, saying:

"But My mercy shall not depart from him as I withdrew it from Shaul, whom I removed from before you."

'You' here still refers to David, who is the recipient of the message.

King David is a 'type' of the Messiah. His record in the word of God is for our learning.

In 2 Samuel chapter 7 we find the word 'house' ('bayith' or 'beit') used 15 times.

In verses 1 and 2, it is used to refer to David's 'house of cedar'.
In verses 5 and 7 we have God's questions to David, and to the children of Israel, about building his house.
In verses 6, 11 and 27 we have God telling David that God will build his house. [These are very instructive!]
Verse 13, if we take your version, is Solomon building a house, and if mine, God building his house. It could be BOTH.
In verse 16, God speaks to David, but equally of the Messiah. It could be read as BOTH.
Then in verses 19, 25, 26,and 29 (x2) we have 'the house of thy servant', referring to David but pointing towards the Messiah; 'and with thy blessing let the house of thy servant be blessed for ever [in the Messiah].'

So in this passage the word 'house' is used of both a building and a people, or family (as you said of 'house' in verse 11).
This is important because there is interchangeability in these two meanings. In Christ, the temple is a body. On earth, the Temple arises as a building of stone, made with human hands, but it is not pleasing to God; in Christ, however, the Temple is recognized as the corporate body of the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 2:21)

 

[Rival]

So you think that Solomon was without sin!? Did God allow Solomon to build his Temple because Solomon was worthy?

Where did I say Solomon was without sin? Yes, evidently HaShem thought Solomon worthy to build the Temple.

In 1 Kings 6:2 it says, 'And the house which king Solomon built for the LORD,' [Who built it? Was it Solomon or God?]
1 Kings 7:1, 'But Solomon was building his own house thirteen years, and he finished all his house.' [Was this HIS OWN HOUSE, or was it GOD'S HOUSE?]

Solomon built it. G-d built a royal dynasty, a royal house.

Yes, it's well known that Solomon spent more time and effort on his house than G-d's. I'm not sure why this is relevant.

 

[Rival]

Verse 13, if we take your version, is Solomon building a house, and if mine, God building his house. It could be BOTH.

Verse 13 is hardly ambiguous. G-d is speaking and says 'He will build a house for My Name'. I'm not quite sure why you think this is somehow ambiguous. G-d is speaking to David through the prophet about what will happen after David's death. G-d told David that David shall not be the one to build the house, but Solomon will. The passage is very clear. Verse 14 seals the deal as HaShem then goes on to say that he will commit iniquity, unless you believe that Jesus commited iniquity this verse doesn't work for your Jesus interpretation.

 

[Ingledsva]

It's worth noting that the words in Hebrew for 'as a lion' and 'digging' ('piercing') appear to the eye to be very similar, and might easily be confused in transcription.

It's actually the insertion of 'as a lion' that causes problems with the context. Once this is done, additional words have to be added to give clarity and meaning to the sentence.

In the Tanakh translation issued by the Jewish Publication Society, the reading is 'Dogs surround me; a pack of evil ones closes in on me, like lions [they maul] my hands and feet.' The words [they maul] have been added to provide meaning! But even then the passage is muddled. Why apply a simile about lions to a pack of dogs?

So who, given the context of Psalm 22, is most likely to have corrupted the text, unintentionally or not?

It is a Psalm of David as it states.

It is lion, as is shown; and verse 21 confirms this.

Psalm 22:16 "k'ari b'yadai v'raglai" - "Like a lion (they) are at my hands and feet." The disputed word here is "k'ari" which is spelled kaph - aleph - resh - yud. Ari is a lion, and that "kaph" before it means "like" or "as."

Psalm 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: ...

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Well honestly, anyone who doesn't believe the words of Jesus will likely not believe that this Psalm is about Jesus either. What people don't take into account is the spiritual struggle that has been going on since the beginning between good and evil. (John 8:44) The point of giving such obscure "hidden" references to Jesus in the scriptures was to confuse the adversary. If satan had known what Jesus' mission on earth was (... For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8) and if satan had known what the effect of the crucifixion would be. (Colossians 2:15) He would never have done it. (1 Cor. 2:8) So it was necessary to keep these truths hidden until they were accomplished. It was afterwards that the scripture says Jesus "opened their understanding" of the scriptures. (Luke 24:45) Then Jesus commanded them to teach these truths about Him, His nature, His mission etc. to all the world. (Mark 16:15) However, Jesus did give a hint on the cross when He quoted the scripture "Eloi,Eloi, lama sabachthani?"

Or they just use common sense.

It says it is a Psalm about David.

It follows what happened to David in other Tanakh texts.

It is about David.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva, this is not a true representation of the scripture because you cut out the important passages that precede the ones quoted.
In verse 5 of Chapter 7 you have the question that sets the scene. Nathan receives the word of the Lord, and is told, 'Go and tell my servant David, Thus sayeth the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?' [Can a man build God's house?]
In verse 11 it says, 'Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.'

It's vitally important to digest these words! THE LORD WILL BUILD HIS HOUSE! So the words 'and I will establish his kingdom' (verse 12) are no longer referring to Solomon. The words that refer to Solomon begin with 'thy' - 'thy seed' and 'thy bowels'. 'His' is a reference to the kingdom belonging to the king who will reign forever. HE (the LORD) will build a house, and the Messiah's kingdom will be for ever (verse 13).

Verse 14 is interesting because it can be applied to both Jesus as Messiah (Israel) and Israel (the descendants of Jacob). The word 'If' separates the two; the Messiah is without iniquity, but Israel the nation is not. Which is why Israel the nation needs to repent [all who come to Christ must do this].

The final act will be ATONEMENT. Israel will be ONE - the people (ISRAEL and JUDAH) SAVED in Christ (ISRAEL). 'Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation:' (Isaiah 45:17). 'In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely:' (Jeremiah 23:6)

You seem to have forgotten that King David did not build him a house, - his son Solomon did so, as 2 Sa 7:12-13 says.

2Sa 7:5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?

2Sa 7:6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.

2Sa 7:7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?

2Sa 7:8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:

2Sa 7:9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.

2Sa 7:10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,

2Sa 7:11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.

2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. (Solomon built the Temple)

2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: (same thing his father King David was told - Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.)

2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

*

 

[74x12]

Or they just use common sense.

It says it is a Psalm about David.

It follows what happened to David in other Tanakh texts.

It is about David.

... But it says it is a Psalm of David. Meaning that David wrote it. That doesn't mean it is necessarily about David.

David is considered a prophet and received these writings/sayings directly from the holy Spirit. Meaning, he did not just say what he wanted to say, but what the holy Spirit told him to say. This was his gift of prophecy through Psalm as he is called the "sweet Psalmist of Israel".

We see in 1 Chronicles 28:11-12 that David even got the plans of the temple that Solomon would build directly from the Spirit of God which showed David the plans God wanted.

1 Chronicles 28:11-12
11 Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat, 12 And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the Lord, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:

So, what your argument comes down to is it questions the very origins of the scriptures. If we are supposed to believe you; then we have to consider the Psalms of David as being out of his own imagination. And in that case the scriptures are not really from the Spirit of God; am I not correct?
But, if we go with the viewpoint of faith; then we will see these Psalms as being inspired by the Spirit of God and faithfully recorded by David the man of God. And therefore these writings speak to us by the Spirit of God who gave them.

 

[Ingledsva]

0

 

[Ingledsva]

... But it says it is a Psalm of David. Meaning that David wrote it. That doesn't mean it is necessarily about David.

David is considered a prophet and received these writings/sayings directly from the holy Spirit. Meaning, he did not just say what he wanted to say, but what the holy Spirit told him to say. This was his gift of prophecy through Psalm as he is called the "sweet Psalmist of Israel".

A Psalmist wrote it about David, in first-person in some places, for effect. These other verses make that clear.

Psa 18:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, the servant of the LORD, who spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD delivered him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul: And he said, I will love thee, O LORD, my strength.

Psa 7:1 Shiggaion of David, which he sang unto the LORD, concerning the words of Cush the Benjamite. O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me:

We see in 1 Chronicles 28:11-12 that David even got the plans of the temple that Solomon would build directly from the Spirit of God which showed David the plans God wanted.

1 Chronicles 28:11-12
11 Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat, 12 And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the Lord, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:

So, what your argument comes down to is it questions the very origins of the scriptures. If we are supposed to believe you; then we have to consider the Psalms of David as being out of his own imagination. And in that case the scriptures are not really from the Spirit of God; am I not correct?
But, if we go with the viewpoint of faith; then we will see these Psalms as being inspired by the Spirit of God and faithfully recorded by David the man of God. And therefore these writings speak to us by the Spirit of God who gave them.

You are proving nothing here.

It doesn't matter if he had the plans. As the verse, and other verses say, his SON SOLOMON built the Temple. It is about David and Solomon - not Jesus.

You need to stop taking these verses out of context.

1Ch 28:2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:

1Ch 28:3 But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.

1Ch 28:4 Howbeit the LORD God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king over all Israel:

1Ch 28:5 And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.

1Ch 28:6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.

Here we have AGAIN - in 28:6 - the words you folks claim means it is Jesus, which this shows beyond any doubt - they are NOT. They are about Solomon.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

So you think that Solomon was without sin!? Did God allow Solomon to build his Temple because Solomon was worthy?

In 1 Kings 6:2 it says, 'And the house which king Solomon built for the LORD,' [Who built it? Was it Solomon or God?]
1 Kings 7:1, 'But Solomon was building his own house thirteen years, and he finished all his house.' [Was this HIS OWN HOUSE, or was it GOD'S HOUSE?]

Interestingly, Solomon prays these words, 'But will God indeed dwell on earth? behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? (1 Kings 8:27)

King David is a 'type' of the Messiah. His record in the word of God is for our learning.

In 2 Samuel chapter 7 we find the word 'house' ('bayith' or 'beit') used 15 times.

In verses 1 and 2, it is used to refer to David's 'house of cedar'.
In verses 5 and 7 we have God's questions to David, and to the children of Israel, about building his house.
In verses 6, 11 and 27 we have God telling David that God will build his house. [These are very instructive!]
Verse 13, if we take your version, is Solomon building a house, and if mine, God building his house. It could be BOTH.
In verse 16, God speaks to David, but equally of the Messiah. It could be read as BOTH.
Then in verses 19, 25, 26,and 29 (x2) we have 'the house of thy servant', referring to David but pointing towards the Messiah; 'and with thy blessing let the house of thy servant be blessed for ever [in the Messiah].'

So in this passage the word 'house' is used of both a building and a people, or family (as you said of 'house' in verse 11).
This is important because there is interchangeability in these two meanings. In Christ, the temple is a body. On earth, the Temple arises as a building of stone, made with human hands, but it is not pleasing to God; in Christ, however, the Temple is recognized as the corporate body of the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 2:21)

You are taking texts out of context.

1Ki 6:1 And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD.

1Ki 6:37 In the fourth year was the foundation of the house of the LORD laid, in the month Zif:

1Ki 6:38 And in the eleventh year, in the month Bul, which is the eighth month, was the house finished throughout all the parts thereof, and according to all the fashion of it. So was he seven years in building it.
*
2Ch 3:1 Then Solomon began to build the house of the LORD at Jerusalem in mount Moriah, where the LORD appeared unto David his father, in the place that David had prepared in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

2Ch 5:1 Thus all the work that Solomon made for the house of the LORD was finished: and Solomon brought in all the things that David his father had dedicated; and the silver, and the gold, and all the instruments, put he among the treasures of the house of God.

2Ch 5:2 Then Solomon assembled the elders of Israel, and all the heads of the tribes, the chief of the fathers of the children of Israel, unto Jerusalem, to bring up the ark of the covenant of the LORD out of the city of David, which is Zion.

2Ch 5:13 It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;

2Ch 5:14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.

*

 

[Redemptionsong]

It is a Psalm of David as it states.

It is lion, as is shown; and verse 21 confirms this.

Psalm 22:16 "k'ari b'yadai v'raglai" - "Like a lion (they) are at my hands and feet." The disputed word here is "k'ari" which is spelled kaph - aleph - resh - yud. Ari is a lion, and that "kaph" before it means "like" or "as."

Psalm 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: ...

What you are failing to say, Inglesva, is that the only difference between 'as a lion' and 'piercing' (in Hebrew) is found in the punctuation of the Hebrew root, which varies in the different Hebrew manuscripts.
More importantly, the different readings don't make a big difference in interpretation, because the early Masorites had reached a similar interpretation to their Christian counterparts. In other words, injuries are caused to hands and feet no matter what the simile or verb. It's not going to stop Christians seeing Psalm 22 as a prophecy of the crucifixion. The very words spoken by Jesus from the cross are a pointer to the Psalm!

You are taking texts out of context.

1Ki 6:1 And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD.

1Ki 6:37 In the fourth year was the foundation of the house of the LORD laid, in the month Zif:

1Ki 6:38 And in the eleventh year, in the month Bul, which is the eighth month, was the house finished throughout all the parts thereof, and according to all the fashion of it. So was he seven years in building it.
*
2Ch 3:1 Then Solomon began to build the house of the LORD at Jerusalem in mount Moriah, where the LORD appeared unto David his father, in the place that David had prepared in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

2Ch 5:1 Thus all the work that Solomon made for the house of the LORD was finished: and Solomon brought in all the things that David his father had dedicated; and the silver, and the gold, and all the instruments, put he among the treasures of the house of God.

2Ch 5:2 Then Solomon assembled the elders of Israel, and all the heads of the tribes, the chief of the fathers of the children of Israel, unto Jerusalem, to bring up the ark of the covenant of the LORD out of the city of David, which is Zion.

2Ch 5:13 It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;

2Ch 5:14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.

So Solomon built a Temple, and God filled that house with HIS presence as he said he would.
Now, we ask, Is this the temple that God would build? Answer, no. The proof being that God allowed the Babylonians to sack the Temple, and the Romans to completely flatten the one that replaced it! Solomon's temple was temporary, just as the tabernacle had been temporary. It lasted longer than the tabernacle, but it wasn't going to last forever. Yet God's temple does last forever!

History is proving a point that you are failing to acknowledge. God wants His people to be HOLY - to live in spirit and in truth. This is only possible if people repent and accept Christ.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Rival, Inglesva, answer this question. Who, for you, is the Shepherd of Israel?

 

[Ingledsva]

What you are failing to say, Inglesva, is that the only difference between 'as a lion' and 'piercing' (in Hebrew) is found in the punctuation of the Hebrew root, which varies in the different Hebrew manuscripts.
More importantly, the different readings don't make a big difference in interpretation, because the early Masorites had reached a similar interpretation to their Christian counterparts. In other words, injuries are caused to hands and feet no matter what the simile or verb. It's not going to stop Christians seeing Psalm 22 as a prophecy of the crucifixion. The very words spoken by Jesus from the cross are a pointer to the Psalm!

The whole thing is about David's trials, and later groups trying to change that - makes no difference to what it actually says.

I added Psalm 22:21 because it shows they KNEW this was a lion. They don't bother changing the meaning to "dog" in 21, or 13, as they did in 18. Verse 21 continues the text and shows beyond any doubt that 18 is lion.

Verse 13 also shows that it is a lion. and 12 shows that these animals represent different groups fighting David.

Verses 12 and 13 also tell us beyond any doubt that this is King David - and not some future Jesus. 12 and 13 tells us the attacking lions are the strong of Bashan, whom were fighting David.

Psa 22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong of Bashan have beset me round. (besiege me)

Psa 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

Psalm 22:16 "k'ari b'yadai v'raglai" - "Like a lion (they) are at my hands and feet." The disputed word here is "k'ari" which is spelled kaph - aleph - resh - yud. Ari is a lion, and that "kaph" before it means "like" or "as."

Psalm 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: ...

"At his hands and feet" - merely means David is hindered in his actions to move and strike, - this is why he calls upon YHVH.

So Solomon built a Temple, and God filled that house with HIS presence as he said he would.
Now, we ask, Is this the temple that God would build? Answer, no. The proof being that God allowed the Babylonians to sack the Temple, and the Romans to completely flatten the one that replaced it! Solomon's temple was temporary, just as the tabernacle had been temporary. It lasted longer than the tabernacle, but it wasn't going to last forever. Yet God's temple does last forever!

History is proving a point that you are failing to acknowledge. God wants His people to be HOLY - to live in spirit and in truth. This is only possible if people repent and accept Christ.

Your "History" is proving nothing.

"Is this the Temple that God would build?" Yes - it says so. The establishing of the house/kingdom forever, and the Temple.

1Ch 28:2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:

1Ch 28:3 But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.

1Ch 28:4 Howbeit the LORD God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king over all Israel:

1Ch 28:5 And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.

1Ch 28:6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.

1Ch 28:7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.

1Ch 28:8 Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the LORD, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the LORD your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever.

1Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

1Ch 28:10 Take heed now; for the LORD hath chosen thee to build an house for the sanctuary: be strong, and do it.

1Ch 28:11 Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,

1Ch 28:12 And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:

Here we have the building of two of YHVH's "houses".

The establishment of the Kingdom of Judah, forever.

And his House/Temple. It says he gave his plans to David through the SPIRIT, and tells us his chosen, SOLOMON, is to build it. Then he dwells in it (cloud).

So the answer is - yes it is.

The Kingdom and Temple

*

 

[Rival]

Rival, Inglesva, answer this question. Who, for you, is the Shepherd of Israel?

HaShem.

 

[Ingledsva]

Rival, Inglesva, answer this question. Who, for you, is the Shepherd of Israel?

Psa 23:1 A Psalm of David. YHVH is my shepherd; I shall not want.

*

 

[Buddha Dharma]

But it says it is a Psalm of David. Meaning that David wrote it. That doesn't mean it is necessarily about David.

Can you show it's clearly not about David, when it so perfectly ties in with the Absalom episode I mentioned?

David is considered a prophet

He is? David needed Nathan as a second opinion then, eh? Jews don't consider David's works prophecy- of that I'm certain. David being a prophet was a exclusively Islamic view, I thought.