Psalm 22 is about David, not Jesus?

[Buddha Dharma]

Prove me wrong from the Bible.

I don't have to prove your inference wrong. You haven't demonstrated it is correct yet. You do that, and I'll conjure up the effort.

 

[74x12]

I don't have to prove your inference wrong. You haven't demonstrated it is correct yet. You do that, and I'll conjure up the effort.

Anyone who gives a message from God is considered a prophet. In any case I don't even need to prove that David is a prophet. Even though it's obvious.

• Psalm 3 is accepted as the Psalm which David made when fleeing Absalom's revolt. Psalms 3:1 (JPS) "A Psalm of David, when he fled from Absalom his son."
• David is a "man of God" (2 Chronicles 8:14) and admits he writes things by God's hand upon him. (1 Chronicles 28:19) Therefore, David's Psalms should be considered to be as equal to the writings of other prophets. So, it logically follows that God can easily give prophetic foretelling within the Psalms. In fact many of the Psalms plainly show us it is God Himself talking. Of which there are many examples.
• God had a good reason to make the prophecies about Christ's sufferings on the cross obscure and hidden. (1 Corinthians 2:8)

 

[Buddha Dharma]

Yes because of course if David is going to be a prophet, it must be that Christ is what he's prophesying about. That is exactly why I don't accept the Christian understanding of David. Psalms is poetry. You honestly think it equates to prophecy?

 

[74x12]

Yes because of course if David is going to be a prophet, it must be that Christ is what he's prophesying about. That is exactly why I don't accept the Christian understanding of David. Psalms is poetry. You honestly think it equates to prophecy?

Yes it is poetry but still prophetic ... in fact many of the prophecies of the likes of Isaiah are poetic in the Hebrew.

 

[wizanda]

It's enough for me that the Jews, the authors of these scriptures- say David is not a prophet.

Modern day Rabbinic Judaism is not Israel or Judah as we find in the old testament, it is a sect from the southern kingdom that went astray, and was cut off and cursed.

Following a group of people's understanding who have been cursed by their own deity (Hosea 5:15, Hosea 5:5-6, Hosea 4:6, Isaiah 43:28, Isaiah 65:15, Zechariah 8:13, Jeremiah 25:18), for being stiff necked (stubborn), not following the instruction given, and then making their own religion up, is totally illogical.

It was Moses who said that they would be facing the opposite way (Deuteronomy 31:24-29), and placed the Curse on them in advanced, because they'd go opposite (Leviticus 26, Deuteronomy 28).

They presume it always means virgin.

No they don't, here look at the different translations.

Only to get it's adherents to question their stances on the Hebrew Bible.

You're not questioning it tho, and when given vast amounts of info about a more logical understanding, you've ignored it; so isn't that a bit hypocritical?

You honestly think it equates to prophecy?

We can prove it is prophetic; yet honestly beginning to think you've just got an agenda, and thus are not listening.

In my opinion.

 

[user4578]

placed the Curse on them in advanced, because they'd go opposite (Leviticus 26, Deuteronomy 28)

Deuteronomy was not however without the concession that they would be rescued from the place to which they would be exiled(Deuteronomy 30:1-6). So it wasn't a curse with no remedy. God is omniscient; he knew the future.

 

[Redemptionsong]

So I've just been through a thread where you and @Tumah had the same shepherd debate. Since now both of us have had a go, I don't think it's worth continuing this conversation unless you feel you have something new to bring to the table.

My final piece. It's all new!
'The LORD is their strength, and he is the saving strength of his anointed. Save thy people, and bless thine inheritance: feed them also, and lift them up forever.' (Psalm 28:8,9)

The scriptures state that the power to save comes from the Lord above, through his anointed Messiah, to his people. How can the people be saved if they reject the Lord's anointed?

Many Jews expected the Messiah to come after 4000 years (AM), in accordance with the prophetic week. His delay was attributed to the sin of the nation. (Talmud, Sanhedrin 97b)
Hosea (5:14,15; 6:1-3) makes it clear that he did come, and that he returned 'to his place'. But, after two thousand years (two days) the scripture says that Israel will be revived, and in the third day 'he will raise us up'.

So what was the 'offence' (KJV) or 'guilt' (JPS) of Israel and Judah? (Hosea 5:15)

Isaiah 53:3, 'He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.'

The nation of Israel rejected the Lord (Psalm 110:1) at his first coming. Will they accept him at the second?

[And finally, my only New Testament offering!]
Revelation 1:7, 'Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him [Psalm 22]: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.'

 

[Rival]

I'm asking you to look one step further and explain how a man is able to save.

Because nowhere is 'saving' described as part of the messianic job description. The moshiach is going to be a formidable teacher and king who will unite the people and bring them to godliness. He isn't here to 'save' anything.

Edit: by save I mean this in the Christian sense. Moshiach isn't here to take all your sins on and save you from whatever; he's an instrument of G-d, who will ultimately be glorified. It is G-d who will remove the sin.

IMO it is better to think of The Messianc Age, rather than just The Messiah.

The issue is given a time frame in Hosea 5:15 and Hosea 6:1-3. Israel and Judah experience God's 'tearing'. The Lord then returns to his place for two days 'till they acknowledge their offence'.

The passages in Hoshea are HaShem chastising those people for their transgressions and asking them to repent. In case you aren't aware, this happens all over the prophets, with HaShem in the end telling them that He will not reject them if they return to Him. This is pretty standard stuff.

 

[wizanda]

Deuteronomy was not however without the concession that they would be rescued from the place to which they would be exiled(Deuteronomy 30:1-6).

That is if they accept the Lord, and since YHVH Elohim became Yeshua Elohim (H3444 + H1961 = Exodus 15:2-3, Psalms 118:14-21, Isaiah 12:2), they still reject their Lord.

The Curse according to Zechariah 14:11, Isaiah 24:6, Isaiah 34:5, Revelation 22:3 is not removed until after the Judgement on the whole world.

Because nowhere is 'saving' described as part of the messianic job description.

Isaiah 2:4 He will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

with HaShem in the end telling them that he will not reject them if they return to Him.

See all this name objectification is why people get confused... As just posting above, El (God) became YHVH (Lord to Be), who became Yehoshua (Lord that Saves).

In my opinion.

 

[Rival]

The scriptures state that the power to save comes from the Lord above, through his anointed Messiah, to his people. How can the people be saved if they reject the Lord's anointed?

Yes, HaShem will use the moshiach; he won't be the moshiach. The very idea that G-d should come to earth as a man and be worshipped is a form of idolatry that is wholly rejected by Jews and Noahides.

Because when the moshiach comes everyone will know about it. The Jewish people aren't going to reject the coming of moshiach; some of them pray for it every single day. We will know when he has come because the Jewish tribes will be united in Israel; they will study in peace and prosperity; there will be no more war, famine or conquest and there will emerge a formidable Jewish king and teacher who will rebuild the Temple.

You can't exactly 'reject' that.

Hosea (5:14,15; 6:1-3) makes it clear that he did come, and that he returned 'to his place'. But, after two thousand years (two days) the scripture says that Israel will be revived, and in the third day 'he will raise us up'.

Hoshea 5 isn't a messianic passage, it's describing the sins of the people of Ephraim and Israel and Judah. The L-rd is chastising Ephraim for going to the Assyrian King for help and for the other tribes begetting strange children. G-d is asking them to return to Him and repent. This is not messianic. The following passages are the words of the people saying how they should return and repent.

Isaiah 53:3, 'He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.'

Isaiah 53 isn't messianic either; this is talking about Israel.

The nation of Israel rejected the Lord (Psalm 110:1) at his first coming. Will they accept him at the second?

You're right that Am Israel rejected your false lord.

 

[Rival]

Isaiah 2:4 He will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

I see what you are saying, Wiz, but there is a specific Christian interpretation of the word 'save' which I am rejecting. Much of the time, when they say save, they seem to mean something slightly different as in 'save you from your sin'. The moshiach won't take your sins away; HaShem will.

 

[wizanda]

there is a specific Christian interpretation of the word 'save' which I am rejecting. Much of the time, when they say save, they seem to mean something slightly different as in 'save you from your sin'.

Agree with rejecting the idea that the Messiah had to be murdered, so we can get closer to God.

Yet Christians have been told this by John, Paul and Simon; not by Yeshua.

The moshiach won't take your sins away; HaShem will.

They're the same thing, Hashem means YHVH Elohim who became Yeshua Elohim...

In the time to come there is a fountain that will cleanse sin, and we will have a new heart (Zechariah 13:1-2, Ezekiel 36:25-27).

In my opinion.

 

[Muffled]

It's worth noting that the words in Hebrew for 'as a lion' and 'digging' ('piercing') appear to the eye to be very similar, and might easily be confused in transcription.

It's actually the insertion of 'as a lion' that causes problems with the context. Once this is done, additional words have to be added to give clarity and meaning to the sentence.

In the Tanakh translation issued by the Jewish Publication Society, the reading is 'Dogs surround me; a pack of evil ones closes in on me, like lions [they maul] my hands and feet.' The words [they maul] have been added to provide meaning! But even then the passage is muddled. Why apply a simile about lions to a pack of dogs?

So who, given the context of Psalm 22, is most likely to have corrupted the text, unintentionally or not?

I believe if that is the metaphor that they wish then lions have claws and the mauling is a piercing.

 

[Muffled]

I guess you can say it was exclusively about Solomon, even though Solomon's reign didn't last forever(2 Sam. 7:16, Jer 22:28-30,37:1). That certainly makes sense, especially given the condition of 1 Chr. 28:6-7, that it would be everlasting(2Sa 23:5).

I believe Jesus is King now and will be forever.

 

[Muffled]

That it was not prophetic when written does not exclude the fact that it was understood by those Jews who believed in Jesus and searched their Scripture for the answers to who and why of Jesus. They found those answers in their own Scripture. That does not mean that was the intent of the biblical author when he wrote.

I believe if something doesn't happen contemporaneously then it has to be considered prophecy and there is nothing about David being attacked by a lion or even anything metaphorically similar.

 

[pearl]

My theological motivation? What is that? I'm a Buddhist. It's enough for me that the Jews, the authors of these scriptures- say David is not a prophet. He had a prophet advisor. Whatever for?

I know of no list of prophets in Hebrew Scripture that includes David. As you stated, Nathan was the prophet who advised David.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

I believe if that is the metaphor that they wish then lions have claws and the mauling is a piercing.

You don't see how this works as a metaphor if Psalms 22 is about the Absalom episode in David's life? His enemies would be all those that mocked and set upon him like Shemei the son of Gera. He had to fight some battles also, as the narrative goes.