Psalm 22 is about David, not Jesus?

[Rival]

Does the coming era of peace and knowledge really diminish the sin problem?

If anything, it should provide an added incentive to discover the solution to sin. Sin exists, and in the future will exist no more. So what happened in between to rid this world of sin?

The messianic era is one of godliness and not materialism.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Yes.

You seen unfamiliar with the Jewish belief about moshiach.

I was told that no two Jews ever think alike!

But it is interesting to hear you say it yourself. Your Messiah is to be born on earth, and will die on earth, as all mortals. This must mean that your Messiah is a sinner, for as the scriptures say, 'Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine; the soul that sinneth it shall die.' (Ezekiel 18:4)

Were your Messiah without sin, he would not die.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The messianic era is one of godliness and not materialism.

That's what scripture tells us. But how is godliness achieved?

 

[Rival]

I was told that no two Jews ever think alike!

But it is interesting to hear you say it yourself. Your Messiah is to be born on earth, and will die on earth, as all mortals. This must mean that your Messiah is a sinner, for as the scriptures say, 'Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine; the soul that sinneth it shall die.' (Ezekiel 18:4)

Were your Messiah without sin, he would not die.

There are said to be four figures who did not sin.

 

[wizanda]

Psalm14: 2,3:

Psalms 14:1 says it is the fool speaking.

But how is godliness achieved?

Godliness is achieved by the Snare Yeshua set in Isaiah 28, removing all the ravenous beings covered in his blood in Isaiah 34.

The Messiah must be God.

The Messiah has the spirit of YHVH Elohim upon him, that means it is equivalent to a Divine representative; the God Most High creates reality, and can not exist in a single human form.

Psalms 146:3-4 Don’t put your trust in princes, each a son of man in whom there is no help. (4) His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish.

This is part of what it means in Revelation 2:9, Revelation 3:9: that Pharisaic Judaism has tried to teach people that YHVH Elohim is the same as the God Most High (El Elyon); when the forefathers Moses, David, Isaiah saw them as different, and yet one stemming from the other...

2 Samuel 22:14 & Psalms 18:13, Yahweh thundered from heaven 'and' The Most High uttered his voice. + Psalms 50:14 + Psalms 78:35 + Psalms 92:1.

Elohim are not God, and the Jews are confused; Elohim are the Arch Angels who made reality, with Yeshua being one of the Elohim, a son of the Most High (Luke 1:32).

In my opinion.

 

[Redemptionsong]

There are said to be four figures who did not sin.

Who are they?

 

[Redemptionsong]

The Messiah has the spirit of YHVH Elohim upon him, that means it is equivalent to a Divine representative; the God Most High creates reality, and can not exist in a single human form.

The Spirit of God can rest upon a man, and for a time there can be sinlessness. A prophet can expound God's word sinlessly. But can a man be tempted in ALL things and remain sinless? For this to happen the Holy Spirit would have to take up permanent residence. The 'house' would have to have been swept clean.

 

[wizanda]

But can a man be tempted in ALL things and remain sinless?

Unfortunately there is no proof that Yeshua was sinless or that anyone in this world could remain free of sin.

Matthew 19:16-17 Behold, one came to him and said, “Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?” (17) He said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

In my opinion.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Psalms 14:1 says it is the fool speaking.

It's the fool who says in his heart, 'There is no God!'

 

[wizanda]

t's the fool who says in his heart, 'There is no God!'

Yes exactly, so whereas Paul states 'there are non righteous' (Romans 3:10-12); Yeshua said:

Matthew 9:13 But you go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ for I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

In my opinion.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Unfortunately there is no proof that Yeshua was sinless or that anyone in this world could remain free of sin.

The proof is God's Word. The word says, 'whosoever is born of God sinneth not'. Of Christ it says, 'And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.' (1 Jn 3:5)

 

[Redemptionsong]

Yes exactly, so whereas Paul states 'there are non righteous' (Romans 3:10-12); Yeshua said:

Matthew 9:13 But you go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ for I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

What Jesus says, and what Paul says, amount to the same. All men have sinned, and all need to repent.

 

[wizanda]

The proof is God's Word.

God's word is not some book; it is reality.

Plus since John, Paul and Simon are all contrary to Yeshua, the Law and the prophets, wouldn't use them as a foundation.

'whosoever is born of God sinneth not'.

What a stupid statement, there are a multitude of sins, that could be unintentional.

All men have sinned, and all need to repent.

Thus if someone is born as a man in this world, it is impossible not to commit the slightest sin.

In my opinion.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Matthew 19:16-17 Behold, one came to him and said, “Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?” (17) He said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

I'm pleased you chose to quote this passage. It is sometimes used by Jehovah's Witnesses to make the same claim that you are now making, that Christ is not God.

So let's examine it.
A man came to Jesus and called him 'Good teacher'. The word 'good' can only really be used of God, for only God is HOLY. Joshua 24:19, 'And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.'
So Jesus was quite right to highlight the use of the word 'good'. The only ONE that is good is GOD.
But here's the punch line. Jesus NEVER SAID HE WASN'T GOOD OR HOLY! He was allowing the man to make up his mind! He was posing the question, 'Do you believe me to be the Son of God?'

 

[Redemptionsong]

There are said to be four figures who did not sin.

Rival, you were about to tell me the names of these four figures.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Thus if someone is born as a man in this world, it is impossible not to commit the slightest sin.

Exactly.

Which is why Jesus Christ was not MAN alone. He was also fully GOD. Only Jesus Christ is able to MEDIATE between God and Man - He has a foot in both camps. Jesus Christ is also the only sinless man that has ever lived. That is why it is impossible for a fully human Messiah to save others from sin and death.

 

[wizanda]

He was also fully GOD.

Matthew 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Yeshua didn't say just as I'm fully perfect.

'Do you believe me to be the Son of God?'

Being a son of God is not a problem, as it is repeatedly used in the Tanakh; the problem is trying to make Yeshua Elohim the God Most High, when he was a manifestation from it, like we all are.

To put it in modern terms, to show how what you're saying can not work; God is the CPU that manifests reality, Yeshua was not the CPU, yet comes from it.

In my opinion.

 

[Rival]

Rival, you were about to tell me the names of these four figures.

I do stuff outside of posting on RF, you understand. I'm not here 24/7.

Benjamin son of Jacob; Amram father of Moshe; Yishai (Jesse) father of David and Kilav son of David.

This is recorded in the Talmud in Tractate Shabbat 55b3

Four people died due to Adam’s sin with the serpent, in the wake of which death was decreed upon all of mankind, although they themselves were free of sin. And they are: Benjamin, son of Jacob; Amram, father of Moses; Yishai, father of David; and Kilab, son of David.

Enoch may also have been without sin.

 

[Tumah]

Isaiah 43:11, 'l, even l, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.'

Rival, you appear to be saying that the Messiah you believe in is one shepherd amongst many.
The Messiah you await is one saviour amongst many.
The Messiah you believe in is a man only.
Psalm14: 2,3: 'The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.'
How can a man-Messiah be anything less than filthy? How can a man-Messiah do what is good?
Surely, a Messiah must be able to mediate between God and man? Is your Messiah not firmly rooted in the earth?

Letting alone whether your interpretation of the Psalm is correct. You haven't made clear why a Messiah needs to do/be any different than say, Moses, who was a man who mediated between G-d and the nation.

 

[wizanda]

Moses, who was a man who mediated between G-d and the nation.

Exodus 4:16 He will be your spokesman to the people; and it will happen, that he will be to you a mouth, and you will be to him as God (Elohim).

Exodus 7:1 Yahweh said to Moses, “Behold, I have made you as God (Elohim) to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.

You haven't made clear why a Messiah needs to do/be any different

Thus the Messiah will be an Elohim as well, like it says here about David:

Zechariah 12:8 In that day Yahweh will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem. He who is feeble among them at that day will be like David, and David’s house will be like God (Elohim), like Yahweh’s angel before them.

The problem is that Elohim are representatives from the One God Most High (El Elyon), and the issue is Jewish comprehension of these words has messed up global theology.

In my opinion.