• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Public Education And Independent Self-Taught Research

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Native said:
You didn’t quite got my specific question amd maybe I was a bit unclear: I asked about the falling acceleration velocity difference between things (bowling ball and feather) falling in free space and in a vacuum chamber test.

The phrase 'acceleration velocity difference' in and of itself makes no sense. Acceleration is the change in velocity. So, it makes sense to talk about the difference in acceleration.

And, in Newton's system, forces are what produce acceleration (F=ma), so when there is an acceleration, there is a force.

Now, in the vacuum chamber, there is a force downward due to gravity. In the air, there is *also* a resistant force *upwards* due to air pressure. The actual acceleration is due to the sum of those forces. Since they are in opposite directions, the size of the force is smaller in the air than in the vacuum chamber.

Pressure is NOT relevant. The air pressure on an object in air comes from ALL sides. It is a force on every square centimeter of the surface. The amount of that resulting force is the same as the *weight* of the air in that region (if we were under water, it would be the weight of the water). That is called the buoyant force. it is directed *upwards*.

If you have something lighter than air (hot air, helium, etc), then the buoyant force upwards is more than the gravitational force downwards, so the object is accelerated upward.

But, if the object is heavier than air (most things), the net force is downwards (gravity is downwards, the buoyant force is upwards and smaller), so the object falls.

The same happens under water. If you have an object that weighs less than the water would for that volume, it will rise in the water and, ultimately, float. If it is heavier than the water for that region, it will sink. The rate at which it sinks depends on the weight (due to gravity, downwards) and the buoyant force (upwards).

This is basic and has been known and understood for thousands of years (since Archimedes).
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Flat Earthers make a very similar argument about the air. The problem with both is that they cannot explain the concept of "down". Air pressure does not have a direction which is why even though it has the same dimensions as force divided by area it lacks that all important direction element of a vector that tells one which direction that a force is applied in. In other words if one has a container with a gas under pressure in it there is no direction to that "force" until one gives it one. For example a bullet hole in one wall will cause air to rapidly exist the container. That allows the pressure to apply a direction to the mass within it and there will of course be an equal and opposite rection in the opposite direction.

"Pressure" cannot explain why an object falls down and not sideways.

As I understand it, @Native is awaiting for Polymath257's reply:

What are you talking about? A vacuum naturally exists in space. They mentioned how much air was left in the chamber and it may have been roughly equivalent to the vacuum we would see on the Moon.

Now you may rightfully claim that a pure vacuum does not exist anywhere, but for the purpose of that experiment it was almost identical to a pure vacuum. One that was close enough.

I´m awaiting an answer from Polymath, thank you.

Even when @Polymath257 do reply, it would still dismiss it with hand-wave, because Native don't like being corrected, and will make up any excuses to justify dismissing any information that Polymath257 may provide.

He has done that to everyone who have disagree with him.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
As I understand it, @Native is awaiting for Polymath257's reply:




Even when @Polymath257 do reply, it would still dismiss it with hand-wave, because Native don't like being corrected, and will make up any excuses to justify dismissing any information that Polymath257 may provide.

He has done that to everyone who have disagree with him.
I know. It is a slow day and I was rather bored. Some people will not learn no matter who tries to help them.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
First, two satellites in the same situation do, in fact, orbit in the same way. The differences are due to different heights and velocities.
Those that are too close to the Earth do experience a *small* amount of residual atmosphere and that can *slow* them over many orbits. But that is a problem with being too close to the atmosphere. Farther away there is no such problem.
Fine, so now we BOTH can conclude in general that weight density of air and atmosphere have a gravitational affect.
Yes. The significant difference is the lack of air in the vacuum. And things still fall in the vacuum. In fact, they fall faster. So, no, the 'constant pull' is NOT removed. It is still there causing the bowling ball and feather to fall.
Resume:
By removing almost all gaseous elements in the vacuum chamber, you neutralizes the air resistance for both the feather and the bowling ball.

But in the same time, you neutralizes the natural falling acceleration velocity as both objects are falling with the same velocity in the vacuum chamber. They react differently compared to falling velocities in free nature under its spacial pressures.

The logical conclusion: By removing gaseous elements, you have in fact disproved Newtons assumed constant "g" gravity pull by removing the weight of air and its atmospheric and its orbital spacial pressure on Earth.

Ergo: The overall spacial pressure on the Earth constitutes a downwards effect on the Earth.


- I sort of don´t agree on Einsteins take on gravitational matters, but he sure was correct in stating Newtons assumed "g" gravity force to be a scientific scam.
 
Last edited:

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
I know. It is a slow day and I was rather bored. Some people will not learn no matter who tries to help them.
I take the first sentence surely to deal with yourself - and I suggest you to ponder more over the latter whether it also regards yourself :)
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
For your further amusement and cosmological pondering over relevant education:
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Public Education: Cosmology Has Some Big Problems
The field relies on a conceptual framework that has trouble accounting for new observations

By Bjørn Ekeberg on April 30, 2019
-------------------
Quote from Cosmology Has Some Big Problems

What do we really know about our universe?

Born out of a cosmic explosion 13.8 billion years ago, the universe rapidly inflated and then cooled, it is still expanding at an increasing rate and mostly made up of unknown dark matter and dark energy ... right?

This well-known story is usually taken as a self-evident scientific fact, despite the relative lack of empirical evidence—and despite a steady crop of discrepancies arising with observations of the distant universe.

In recent months, new measurements of the Hubble constant, the rate of universal expansion, suggested major differences between two independent methods of calculation. Discrepancies on the expansion rate have huge implications not simply for calculation but for the validity of cosmology's current standard model at the extreme scales of the cosmos.

Another recent probe found galaxies inconsistent with the theory of dark matter, which posits this hypothetical substance to be everywhere. But according to the latest measurements, it is not, suggesting the theory needs to be reexamined.

It's perhaps worth stopping to ask why astrophysicists hypothesize dark matter to be everywhere in the universe. The answer lies in a peculiar feature of cosmological physics that is not often remarked. A crucial function of theories such as dark matter, dark energy and inflation—each in its own way tied to the big bang paradigm—is not to describe known empirical phenomena but rather to maintain the mathematical coherence of the framework itself while accounting for discrepant observations. Fundamentally, they are names for something that must exist insofar as the framework is assumed to be universally valid.

Each new discrepancy between observation and theory can, of course, in and of itself be considered an exciting promise of more research, a progressive refinement toward the truth. But when they add up, they could also suggest a more confounding problem that is not resolved by tweaking parameters or adding new variables.

Consider the context of the problem and its history. As a mathematically driven science, cosmological physics is usually thought to be extremely precise. But the cosmos is unlike any scientific subject matter on earth. A theory of the entire universe, based on our own tiny neighborhood as the only known sample of it, requires a lot of simplifying assumptions. When these assumptions are multiplied and stretched across vast distances, the potential for error increases, and this is further compounded by our very limited means of testing.

Historically, Newton's physical laws made up a theoretical framework that worked for our own solar system with remarkable precision. Both Uranus and Neptune, for example, were discovered through predictions based on Newton's model. But as the scales grew larger, its validity proved limited. Einstein's general relativity framework provided an extended and more precise reach beyond the furthest reaches of our own galaxy. But just how far could it go?

The big bang paradigm that emerged in the mid-20th century effectively stretches the model's validity to a kind of infinity, defined either as the boundary of the radius of the universe (calculated at 46 billion light-years), or in terms of the beginning of time. This giant stretch is based on a few concrete discoveries, such as Edwin Hubble's observation that the universe appears to be expanding (in 1929) and the detection of the microwave background radiation (in 1964). But considering the scale involved, these limited observations have had an outsized influence on cosmological theory.

It is, of course, entirely plausible that the validity of general relativity breaks down much closer to our own home than at the edge of the hypothetical end of the universe. And if that were the case, today's multilayered theoretical edifice of the big bang paradigm would turn out to be a confusing mix of fictional beasts invented to uphold the model, along with empirically valid variables mutually reliant on each other to the point of making it impossible to sort science from fiction.

Compounding this problem, most observations of the universe occur experimentally and indirectly. Today's space telescopes provide no direct view of anything—they produce measurements through an interplay of theoretical predictions and pliable parameters, in which the model is involved every step of the way. The framework literally frames the problem; it determines where and how to observe. And so, despite the advanced technologies and methods involved, the profound limitations to the endeavor also increase the risk of being led astray by the kind of assumptions that cannot be calculated.

After spending many years researching the foundations of cosmological physics from a philosophy of science perspective, I have not been surprised to hear some scientists openly talking about a crisis in cosmology. In the big “inflation debate” in Scientific American a few years ago, a key piece of the big bang paradigm was criticized by one of the theory's original proponents for having become indefensible as a scientific theory.

Why? Because inflation theory relies on ad hoc contrivances to accommodate almost any data, and because its proposed physical field is not based on anything with empirical justification. This is probably because a crucial function of inflation is to bridge the transition from an unknowable big bang to a physics we can recognize today. So, is it science or a convenient invention?

A few astrophysicists, such as Michael J. Disney, have criticized the big bang paradigm for its lack of demonstrated certainties. In his analysis, the theoretical framework has far fewer certain observations than free parameters to tweak them—a so-called “negative significance” that would be an alarming sign for any science. As Disney writes in American Scientist: “A skeptic is entitled to feel that a negative significance, after so much time, effort and trimming, is nothing more than one would expect of a folktale constantly re-edited to fit inconvenient new observations."

As I discuss in my new book, Metaphysical Experiments, there is a deeper history behind the current problems. The big bang hypothesis itself originally emerged as an indirect consequence of general relativity undergoing remodeling. Einstein had made a fundamental assumption about the universe, that it was static in both space and time, and to make his equations add up, he added a “cosmological constant,” for which he freely admitted there was no physical justification.

But when Hubble observed that the universe was expanding and Einstein's solution no longer seemed to make sense, some mathematical physicists tried to change a fundamental assumption of the model: that the universe was the same in all spatial directions but variant in time. Not insignificantly, this theory came with a very promising upside: a possible merger between cosmology and nuclear physics. Could the brave new model of the atom also explain our universe?

From the outset, the theory only spoke to the immediate aftermath of an explicitly hypothetical event, whose principal function was as a limit condition, the point at which the theory breaks down. Big bang theory says nothing about the big bang; it is rather a possible hypothetical premise for resolving general relativity.

On top of this undemonstrable but very productive hypothesis, floor upon floor has been added intact, with vastly extended scales and new discrepancies. To explain observations of galaxies inconsistent with general relativity, the existence of dark matter was posited as an unknown and invisible form of matter calculated to make up more than a quarter of all mass-energy content in the universe—assuming, of course, the framework is universally valid. In 1998, when a set of supernova measurements of accelerating galaxies seemed at odds with the framework, a new theory emerged of a mysterious force called dark energy, calculated to fill circa 70 percent of the mass-energy of the universe.

The crux of today's cosmological paradigm is that in order to maintain a mathematically unified theory valid for the entire universe, we must accept that 95 percent of our cosmos is furnished by completely unknown elements and forces for which we have no empirical evidence whatsoever. For a scientist to be confident of this picture requires an exceptional faith in the power of mathematical unification.

In the end, the conundrum for cosmology is its reliance on the framework as a necessary presupposition for conducting research. For lack of a clear alternative, as astrophysicist Disney also notes, it is in a sense stuck with the paradigm. It seems more pragmatic to add new theoretical floors than to rethink the fundamentals.

Contrary to the scientific ideal of getting progressively closer to the truth, it looks rather like cosmology, to borrow a term from technology studies, has become path-dependent: overdetermined by the implications of its past inventions.

This article is based on edited excerpts from the book Metaphysical Experiments: Physics and the Invention of the Universe, published by University of Minnesota Press.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Fine, so now we BOTH can conclude in general that weight density of air and atmosphere have a gravitational affect.


No. What I said is that an object moving thorugh air (or water) will experience a force in the opposite direction of motion. That force is NOT gravitational. It is friction.

Resume:
By removing almost all gaseous elements in the vacuum chamber, you neutralizes the air resistance for both the feather and the bowling ball.

But in the same time, you neutralizes the natural falling acceleration velocity as both objects are falling with the same velocity in the vacuum chamber. They react differently compared to falling velocities in free nature under its spacial pressures.

The logical conclusion: By removing gaseous elements, you have in fact disproved Newtons assumed constant "g" gravity pull by removing the weight of air and its atmospheric and its orbital spacial pressure on Earth.

Ergo: The overall spacial pressure on the Earth constitutes a downwards effect on the Earth.


- I sort of don´t agree on Einsteins take on gravitational matters, but he sure was correct in stating Newtons assumed "g" gravity force to be a scientific scam.

No, Newton's law has to do with gravity, not air resistance. And, in the absence of air, the two objects do fall at the same rate, as predicted by Newton.

You really seem not to understand basic concepts like force, buoyancy, velocity, acceleration, etc.

The acceleration, 'g' is a local amount, not a global constant. The constant 'G" is the global constant.

Einstein certainly did NOT consider Newton's work to be a scam. He provided an alternative explanation that is more accurate (the goal of science).
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Native said:
Fine, so now we BOTH can conclude in general that weight density of air and atmosphere have a gravitational affect.
No. What I said is that an object moving thorugh air (or water) will experience a force in the opposite direction of motion. That force is NOT gravitational. It is friction.
Apparently. you´re having troubles of connecting your air resistance friction to gravitational affects. Maybe it would help you to think of this effect when spacecrafts are entering the atmosphere and their velocity are slowed down?
No, Newton's law has to do with gravity, not air resistance. And, in the absence of air, the two objects do fall at the same rate, as predicted by Newton.
You really seem not to understand basic concepts like force, buoyancy, velocity, acceleration, etc.
The acceleration, 'g' is a local amount, not a global constant. The constant 'G" is the global constant.
Einstein certainly did NOT consider Newton's work to be a scam. He provided an alternative explanation that is more accurate (the goal of science).
Is this really all you can come up with? Uncritically parroting old consensus dogmas and pedantic cutting cosmological match sticks terms with an axe? You´re plain out ignoring the analytical and logical facts and are practicing argumentative fence jumping all over the places.
 
Last edited:

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Native said:
Fine, so now we BOTH can conclude in general that weight density of air and atmosphere have a gravitational affect.

Apparently. you´re having troubles of connecting your air resistance friction to gravitational affects. Maybe it would help you to think of this effect when spacecrafts are entering the atmosphere and their velocity are slowed down?

Their velocities are slowed down due to friction. That is also why they need heat shields. That has NOTHING to do with gravity. It *does* affect their motion.


Is this really all you can come up with? Uncritically parroting old consensus dogmas and pedantic cutting cosmological match sticks terms with an axe? You´re plain out ignoring the analytical and logical facts and are practicing argumentative fence jumping all over the places.

No, you are ignoring the simple fact that things fall at the same rate in a vacuum. That is *precisely* what Newton's laws predict.

The removal of air is exactly what is required to separate out the different aspects of the motion: one is gravity, the other is air resistance. The air resistance (like resistance in water) is related to buoyancy and is a frictional effect. But, when this is removed, *things still fall*. And they fall *at the same rate*. This shows that gravity exists and is the dominant aspect of how things fall.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Native said:
Fine, so now we BOTH can conclude in general that weight density of air and atmosphere have a gravitational affect.

Didn't you just imply that I was slow?



Apparently. you´re having troubles of connecting your air resistance friction to gravitational affects. Maybe it would help you to think of this effect when spacecrafts are entering the atmosphere and their velocity are slowed down?

No, air resistance is well understood. There are all sorts of ways of physically measuring this process. The question is, what are your beliefs and what tests could possibly refute them?
Is this really all you can come up with? Uncritically parroting old consensus dogmas and pedantic cutting cosmological match sticks terms with an axe? You´re plain out ignoring the analytical and logical facts and are practicing argumentative fence jumping all over the places.

He tried to simplify the concepts for you. There is only so far that one can go doing this. What part was too hard to understand?
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Native said:
Fine, so now we BOTH can conclude in general that weight density of air and atmosphere have a gravitational affect.
Apparently. you´re having troubles of connecting your air resistance friction to gravitational affects. Maybe it would help you to think of this effect when spacecrafts are entering the atmosphere and their velocity are slowed down?
Their velocities are slowed down due to friction. That is also why they need heat shields. That has NOTHING to do with gravity. It *does* affect their motion.
Well, the entire scenario of launching and reentering a spacecraft, has nothing to do with gravity, but when the reentering craft is slown down by the atmospheric friction resistance, it logically also tell you very specifically of the force conditions of the atmospheric density weight and pressure, which logically also exist when launching a spacecraft. The Standard Model and it´s poponentns just call this condition for a "pull from the Earth" - without explaining such a force at all.

Native said
Is this really all you can come up with? Uncritically parroting old consensus dogmas and pedantic cutting cosmological match sticks terms with an axe? You´re plain out ignoring the analytical and logical facts and are practicing argumentative fence jumping all over the places.
No, you are ignoring the simple fact that things fall at the same rate in a vacuum. That is *precisely* what Newton's laws predict.
Well, then Newton also failed in this matter. Just take your own explanation of "friction on reentering spacecrafts". There is no such thing as a natural vacuum anywhere.
The removal of air is exactly what is required to separate out the different aspects of the motion: one is gravity, the other is air resistance. The air resistance (like resistance in water) is related to buoyancy and is a frictional effect. But, when this is removed, *things still fall*. And they fall *at the same rate*. This shows that gravity exists and is the dominant aspect of how things fall.
Could you please apply some comparative logics in your explanation?

When you remove air in your chamber, you in fact remove the natural atmospheric pressure and resistance - and when a bowling ball and a feather fall with the same acceleration in this chamber, you´re in fact contradicting the natural falling (Newtons assumed pull) acceleration conditions outside your chamber.
You´ve de facto vacuumed out the natural falling conditions of this experiment and the natural acceleration outside the chamber tell you of the factual force in play. Those natural conditions which got Newton to assume his "pull from the Earth" - discarded later by Einstein too.

You´re removing a natural atmospheric weight pressure of a very much similar downwards value of Newtons assumed upwards calculating "escape velocity" and all you scientifically have got left to hold onto, is STILL an assumed force which nobody can explain scientifically by what dynamic means it should work.

And naturally so too, as this assumed force is an occult agency invention and a speculative mental construct of Newton.
 
Last edited:

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Native said:
Fine, so now we BOTH can conclude in general that weight density of air and atmosphere have a gravitational affect.
Didn't you just imply that I was slow?
Well, if you can´t combine and compare atmospheric conditions with accelerating ascending and decelerating descending motions of objects in the atmospheric realms don’t have a gravitational effect, you´re IMO not the brightest and quickest pupil in class. (Your own take on this problematics).
 
Last edited:

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
.
Native said:
Fine, so now we BOTH can conclude in general that weight density of air and atmosphere have a gravitational affect.

Well, if you can´t combine and compare atmospheric conditions with accelerating ascending and decelerating descending motions of objects in the atmospheric realms, you´re IMO not the brightest and quickest pupil in class. (Your own description).

Actually I don't think that you can do it. That would mean that by your criteria you would be the slow one. How and why would the atmosphere accelerate an object towards the Earth?

Why would the air exert a downward force?

And I do not agree that the air would have a gravitational effect. But it is your claim. It is your burden of.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Native said:
Fine, so now we BOTH can conclude in general that weight density of air and atmosphere have a gravitational affect.
Well, if you can´t combine and compare atmospheric conditions with accelerating ascending and decelerating descending motions of objects in the atmospheric realms, you´re IMO not the brightest and quickest pupil in class. (Your own description).

Actually I don't think that you can do it. That would mean that by your criteria you would be the slow one. How and why would the atmosphere accelerate an object towards the Earth?
At first you outright reject the idea, and presume I´m slow, and then you´re asking into it!? Shouldn’t that be the other way around and not making biased prejudgments?

By the very and simple weight pressure on everything on the Earth and its atmosphere. When you remove this pressure in a vacuum chamber experiment, you´ll get the idea how much it means out in the real natural conditions.
And I do not agree that the air would have a gravitational effect. But it is your claim. It is your burden of.
It most certainly has when a spacecraft is reentering the atmosphere, thus breaking the spacecraft velocity. The opposite case of launching a spacecraft will logically also apply.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Native said:
Fine, so now we BOTH can conclude in general that weight density of air and atmosphere have a gravitational affect.
Well, if you can´t combine and compare atmospheric conditions with accelerating ascending and decelerating descending motions of objects in the atmospheric realms, you´re IMO not the brightest and quickest pupil in class. (Your own description).


At first you outright reject the idea, and presume I´m slow, and then you´re asking into it!? Shouldn’t that be the other way around and not making biased prejudgments?

By the very and simple weight pressure on everything on the Earth and its atmosphere. When you remove this pressure in a vacuum chamber experiment, you´ll get the idea how much it means out in the real natural conditions.

It most certainly has when a spacecraft is reentering the atmosphere, thus breaking the spacecraft velocity. The opposite case of launching a spacecraft will logically also apply.

You appear to be confused and are now dodging your burden of proof. I never agreed. Perhaps you could quote my post and explain how you think that I agreed. If you do so I am very sure that I could explain your error to you.

And could you please learn how to use the quote buttons correctly? It would make your posts clearer.

And you did not answer my question. You merely waved your hands a bit.

How and why should pressure cause an object to fall downward? From your botched answer it appears that you do not know what pressure is.
 
Top