Puranic and/or non-tantric Shaivism/Skaktism today?

[User14]

Above all else, I'm emotionally drawn to the Goddess, particularly in the form of Parvati. That's the main reason I became interested in Indian religion in the first place. My mind also feels drawn to Lord Shiva, and the idea that Shiva represents the inactive, transcendent aspect of God and his consort represents God's immanent, material aspect fits quite well with theological ideas I've had for a long time.


However, I'm reluctant to fully embrace the Tantras and the Agamas, at least at this present moment. I won't go into all the reasons why. But suffice it to say, I'm more like a Vaishnava in my religious outlook. I'm mostly socially and culturally conservative, I'm somewhat turned off by esotericism, and I prefer bhakti and personal, emotional devotion to rituals and practices designed to give me spiritual or occult "powers."


Yet...Vishnu and his avatars have not captured my heart and mind the way Parvati and Shiva have. None of the consorts of Vishnu or his avatars produce in me the distinct feeling of childlike love for the Mother the way Parvati does. Shiva seems to me to be a better representation of the transcendent, unmanifest Divine than Vishnu.


It seems like all of the surviving Shaiva and Shakta sects place a lot of emphasis on the Agamas/Tantras (which I presently do not have much interest in) and little emphasis on the Puranas (which I presently have much interest in)—even those that praise Shiva and the Goddess.


Didn't Shiva and Shakti devotion exist in the Puranic period before most of the Tantras were written? If I could be anything, I would be a non-tantric, Puranic-style Shiva/Parvati bhakta. I know it would be possible to be that......anything's possible, of course......but I'm afraid that I won't meet many other people like that. At least, there don't seem be many organized groups in that vein. And I long for a sense of community with devotees of a similar mindset.


I'm not sure if I would fit in with the Smartas either. While I like that they value the Puranas, I'm not interested in only worshipping Shiva and Parvati as my "favorite" deities...they're more than just my personal favorites; I view them as the best ways to imagine God and to produce devotion.


Like I said, I know it's perfectly possible for me to follow the path I have in mind. I guess I just don't want to walk the path alone....are there any organized groups/sub-sects/schools of Shaivas and/or Shaktas who have an outlook similar to mine, that still survive today?


Thank you!

 

[Kirran]

I'm not sure if I would fit in with the Smartas either. While I like that they value the Puranas, I'm not interested in only worshipping Shiva and Parvati as my "favorite" deities...they're more than just my personal favorites; I view them as the best ways to imagine God and to produce devotion

I'm gonna cut through and just address this real quick (not a lot of time) - that is how things are in Smartism, or in general universal Hinduism. But Smartism isn't some formal sect very much, most people whose views we'd label as Smarta have never heard of the term. Being a Hindu universalist is basically just normative Hinduism.

So a mainstream Hindu, or a follower of an organisation like the Ramakrishna Mission (which I cannot praise highly enough) would see their ishta as the best ways to approach God. And more than that, as the very manifestation of God.

 

[User14]

Thanks for your reply.

I did get the sense that the kind of mindset I was describing is basically that of normative Hinduism. But are there any large groups of normative Hindus or traditions or lineages that are defined by consistently making Shiva and/or the Goddess their ishta at the exclusion of the others?

Reading about Ramakrishna's devotion to the Divine Mother was one of the first things that really grabbed my attention with regard to Hinduism. But I am also somewhat puzzled by his eagerness to follow other paths such as Islam. I suppose that, although I'm skeptical of dogmatic, esoteric claims regarding God's nature, I also am not particularly compelled by the universalist message that all paths are of equal merit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that sentiment seems to be at the core of the Ramakrishna Mission.

 

[Kirran]

Thanks for your reply.

I did get the sense that the kind of mindset I was describing is basically that of normative Hinduism. But are there any large groups of normative Hindus or traditions or lineages that are defined by consistently making Shiva and/or the Goddess their ishta at the exclusion of the others?

There'll be various areas where devotion to Shiva, or Shakti, or Shiva-Shakti, is the main thing, yeah. And then of course there are particular guru-disciple lineages and denominations which are Shaiva or Shakta, but that's something else.

Reading about Ramakrishna's devotion to the Divine Mother was one of the first things that really grabbed my attention with regard to Hinduism. But I am also somewhat puzzled by his eagerness to follow other paths such as Islam. I suppose that, although I'm skeptical of dogmatic, esoteric claims regarding God's nature, I also am not particularly compelled by the universalist message that all paths are of equal merit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that sentiment seems to be at the core of the Ramakrishna Mission.

Not necessarily that all paths are of equal merit, but that all religions have the potential to act as paths to God-Realisation. Of course in the Ramakrishna Mission, if only Hindu tradition stuff draws you, that's where you'll keep your focus - they ain't gonna force you!

 

[SomeRandom]

Above all else, I'm emotionally drawn to the Goddess, particularly in the form of Parvati. That's the main reason I became interested in Indian religion in the first place. My mind also feels drawn to Lord Shiva, and the idea that Shiva represents the inactive, transcendent aspect of God and his consort represents God's immanent, material aspect fits quite well with theological ideas I've had for a long time.


However, I'm reluctant to fully embrace the Tantras and the Agamas, at least at this present moment. I won't go into all the reasons why. But suffice it to say, I'm more like a Vaishnava in my religious outlook. I'm mostly socially and culturally conservative, I'm somewhat turned off by esotericism, and I prefer bhakti and personal, emotional devotion to rituals and practices designed to give me spiritual or occult "powers."


Yet...Vishnu and his avatars have not captured my heart and mind the way Parvati and Shiva have. None of the consorts of Vishnu or his avatars produce in me the distinct feeling of childlike love for the Mother the way Parvati does. Shiva seems to me to be a better representation of the transcendent, unmanifest Divine than Vishnu.


It seems like all of the surviving Shaiva and Shakta sects place a lot of emphasis on the Agamas/Tantras (which I presently do not have much interest in) and little emphasis on the Puranas (which I presently have much interest in)—even those that praise Shiva and the Goddess.


Didn't Shiva and Shakti devotion exist in the Puranic period before most of the Tantras were written? If I could be anything, I would be a non-tantric, Puranic-style Shiva/Parvati bhakta. I know it would be possible to be that......anything's possible, of course......but I'm afraid that I won't meet many other people like that. At least, there don't seem be many organized groups in that vein. And I long for a sense of community with devotees of a similar mindset.

Like I said, I know it's perfectly possible for me to follow the path I have in mind. I guess I just don't want to walk the path alone....are there any organized groups/sub-sects/schools of Shaivas and/or Shaktas who have an outlook similar to mine, that still survive today?


Thank you!

You could try books like the Devi-Bhagavata Purana. Tantric Shaktism is technically a sub division of the school. But it's more or less prevalent in people's minds. So I'm sure there are schools out there that are like what you describe. I mean I don't personally place too much stock in such things, I just do what I do and get on with things. But different strokes.


Also

I'm not sure if I would fit in with the Smartas either. While I like that they value the Puranas, I'm not interested in only worshipping Shiva and Parvati as my "favorite" deities...they're more than just my personal favorites; I view them as the best ways to imagine God and to produce devotion.

That's not Smartism.
Smartas regard the "big five" Shiva, Ganesh, Vishnu, Suyra (sun god) and Devi as equal. That is to say, they see Brahman as transcending all manifest deities. There are two main aspects of Brahman to Smartas. Brahman with attributes and Brahman without attributes. Who they choose to worship "exclusively" depends on the household. Or even what day of the week it is! But all are given equal importance (though some may play favorites.)

Besides what are the sects if not worshiping the chosen form as your "favorite" in some way?
Sure Shaktis have no issue with worshiping Shiva, Vaishnavas don't have any qualms about attending a celebration for the Mother and Shaivites can happily attend Ramnavi. But all have been drawn to a particular form and see that as the "supreme." As the manifest of God. Or to paraphrase your apt observation, the best way to envision God and to produce devotion in that person. We have all chosen our Isthas in some manner, even if we do not like to say so outright.

 

[User14]

And then of course there are particular guru-disciple lineages and denominations which are Shaiva or Shakta, but that's something else.

Does that refer to the more tantric sub-sects like Kashmir Shaivism, Saiva Siddhanta, Veerashaivism, Sri Vidya, etc.? Or are there any less tantric ones?

 

[Kirran]

Does that refer to the more tantric sub-sects like Kashmir Shaivism, Saiva Siddhanta, Veerashaivism, Sri Vidya, etc.? Or are there any less tantric ones?

Hinduism being as diverse as it is, there are bound to be, but I regret to say I am not personally familiar with them.

 

[Vinayaka]

Sure, I'll toss in another viewpoint, just to confuse you even more. Regarding Smartism, there is the old school formal Smartism, a traditional school, and then there is the Smarta influenced liberal Hinduism, for lack of a better term. Many of the core ideas of Smartism have spread out to the village Hindu, much like the core ideas of Greek democracy have come into modern times. The main component is the idea of picking and choosing.

Hang in there, you'll find something that makes some sense.

 

[User14]

Hinduism being as diverse as it is, there are bound to be, but I regret to say I am not personally familiar with them.

That's ok- thanks for your help.

Sure, I'll toss in another viewpoint, just to confuse you even more. Regarding Smartism, there is the old school formal Smartism, a traditional school, and then there is the Smarta influenced liberal Hinduism, for lack of a better term. Many of the core ideas of Smartism have spread out to the village Hindu, much like the core ideas of Greek democracy have come into modern times. The main component is the idea of picking and choosing.

I have gotten the feeling that when we talk about Smartism, we're talking about two different things. Which of those two viewpoints- traditional or liberal Smartism- would be more compatible with what I've been expressing? There's also the problem of me being a casteless non-Indian.

 

[Vinayaka]

Oh you're definitely talking about liberal Smartism. Another key difference is that the traditional Smarta will DEFINITELY and very definitively know he/she is a Smarta, whereas a Liberal one most likely won't. It's not true Smarta really, but I can't think of a correct way to put it. Maybe Smarta influenced Puranic Hinduism. I have only been to one temple that had the traditional Smarta shrine set up as its centerpiece, whereas tons of temples have every deity under the sun, and more, and often leave niches in the walls for more, should someone want to donate another deity or two. They stand apart from the three other sects, where you'll find far less deities in number.

I do know of a Siva temple that would be as your sort of wish-list describes.

 

[SomeRandom]

There's also the problem of me being a casteless non-Indian.

Why would that be a problem? Outside of India few people even know the Caste system. And Hinduism doesn't have some weird requirement for one to be Indian.

 

[Vinayaka]

Why would that be a problem? Outside of India few people even know the Caste system. And Hinduism doesn't have some weird requirement for one to be Indian.

No kidding. More than half the people on here are non-Indian 'casteless' . Seriously, OP, it isn't a problem at all. Probably more of a bonus than a problem.

 

[User14]

I do know of a Siva temple that would be as your sort of wish-list describes.

Where is it located?

No kidding. More than half the people on here are non-Indian 'casteless' . Seriously, OP, it isn't a problem at all. Probably more of a bonus than a problem.

I know it's not typically a problem, but I thought it was sometimes an issue in the Smarta tradition and/or normative, popular Hinduism...but my knowledge on Smarta is limited!

 

[Vinayaka]

Vancouver Canada.

Yes it can be an issue with traditional Smartas. Very rare, but I've seen it too. Mostly a personality thing. A certain type of person isn't happy unless they're grumpy.

 

[User14]

Vancouver Canada.

Thanks!

Yes it can be an issue with traditional Smartas. Very rare, but I've seen it too. Mostly a personality thing. A certain type of person isn't happy unless they're grumpy.

I respect their right to keep their traditions and culture alive however they see fit. Most importantly, I wouldn't want to impose myself upon them.

 

[Bhadr]

Hi User14 Ji,
I don't know if there any sect that practices what you believe in.

SomeRandomji and Vinayakaji have explained clearly about Smarta tradition and Smarta tradition isn't what you are looking for.Smartas are not attached any gods and all deities,names,forms will be tossed out sooner or later.The focus is on (Nirguna)Brahman always.

Saktas are tantric and many Saiva traditions give importance to Agamas.

(You could look into the tradition of 12 Tirumurais,its a huge collection of works of various Siva devotees.Its devotional in nature and I assume not tantric.(Saiva Siddhanta school also follows it).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirumurai )

 

[User14]

The focus is on (Nirguna)Brahman always.

Yeah that's one thing I worry about. I'd like to find a tradition that regards emotional devotion to a personal god as a valid and complete path to salvation, not just an intermediate step.

(You could look into the tradition of 12 Tirumurais,its a huge collection of works of various Siva devotees.Its devotional in nature and I assume not tantric.(Saiva Siddhanta school also follows it).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirumurai )

Of all the Shaiva sects I've looked into, Saiva Siddhanta appeals to me the most. But I think they put emphasis on the Agamas in addition to the devotional Tamil works, although I could be wrong about that. I'm also not sure how much they value the Puranas.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Welcome to the fourm, User 14. Now, to your topic.
Well, no one asks you to embrace Tantras and the Agamas. This is your choice. I do not.
Heh, heh, 'occult powers', and what do you want to achieve with 'occult powers'? You can easily fly from one place to another by buying an air-ticket.
IMHO, devotion to Shiva and the Mother has existed in India since the time when we were making stone tools. Half of India is a devotee of Lord Shiva and Mother Gauri and does not care for tantra or agamas.
I am a Smarta. The Smart doctrine is to worship all Hindu deities, even those who we may come to know of today (Hindus may have regional deities of whom I may not be aware). Of course, stress on your personal deity (Ishta) is allowed.
Oh, we are not just surviving, we are having a great time, and lots of fun.

See here: https://www.google.co.in/search?q=g...AQIPA#newwindow=1&tbm=isch&q=gangaur+festival

 

[User14]

Perhaps "occult" is inaccurate. But there much about tantric practices-like chakras, kundalini, etc.-that doesn't resonate with me at all. All I care about is devotion!

 

[Aupmanyav]

But are there any large groups of normative Hindus or traditions or lineages that are defined by consistently making Shiva and/or the Goddess their ishta at the exclusion of the others?

But I am also somewhat puzzled by his eagerness to follow other paths such as Islam. I suppose that, although I'm skeptical of dogmatic, esoteric claims regarding God's nature, I also am not particularly compelled by the universalist message that all paths are of equal merit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that sentiment seems to be at the core of the Ramakrishna Mission.

There may be such lineages, but as a 'normative Hindu', I will baulk at that.

That was Ramakrishna's personal view (which being Hindus, we grudgingly accept. We are not allowed to denigrate the views of others). But that is not my view or a particularly popular view.

Perhaps "occult" is inaccurate. But there much about tantric practices-like chakras, kundalini, etc.- that doesn't resonate with me at all. All I care about is devotion!

I suppose that is the right thing. Personally I would term these practices as unscientific unless science authenticates them.