User14
Member
Which view are you referring to? The universalist one (with regards to other religions)?
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Puranic and/or non-tantric Shaivism/Skaktism today?
Which view are you referring to? The universalist one (with regards to other religions)?
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Yeah, I do not (fortunately or unfortunately) have that kind of universal outlook. I still have my or mine and I am comfortable with that only.
Technically a 'Smarta' was to worship five deities. Then a sixth was added later. But who cares about that, at least I don't. Deities are deities and all deities are venerable. If one can worship six, then IMHO, it is OK to worship even sixty. After all, they are all Hindu deities, deities worshiped by various Hindus.
Perhaps you do not need to search for one. Devotion (Bhakti) is considered a sufficient and complete path in all traditions of Hinduism (action and Knowledge being the other two, Karma and Jnana). All that one needs to know automatically comes with Bhakti.
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User14
Member
I thought Smarta originally referred to people who put emphasis on the Smriti texts like the Puranas, and later came to be used to refer to the systematized worship of the Five deities. That's what I meant when I said that it seems like Smarta could refer to two different things: the specific tradition of worshipping those five deities, or the more broad worship of the many personal deities as described in Smriti texts.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
You are right. That is the correct meaning but it has expanded to include all. First it was Panchayatana (Five deities), then Shanmata (Six deities), as enunciated by the First Sanakracharya, perhaps the greatest of Hindu religious teachers.
Panchayatana puja is a system of worship ('puja') in the Smarta tradition of Hinduism. It consists of the worship of five deities set in a quincunx pattern, the five deities being Shiva, Vishnu, Devi or Durga, Surya and an Ishta Devata such as Ganesha or Skanda or any personal god of devotee's preference. Sometimes the Ishta Devata is the sixth deity in the mandala. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panchayatana_puja
Shanmata meaning "Six Religions" in Sanskrit, has its origins in the hoary past. While these Six Religions of Vedic Culture initially had separate followers, theologian Adi Shankara, the 8th century CE Hindu philosopher, worked to join the adherents of the Six Religions into one through spreading his Advaita Vedanta philosophy. Adi Sankara's followers worship all It centers around the worship of the Six of the supreme Deities of the Vedic eligion, Shiva, Vishnu, Shakti, Ganesha, Surya and Skanda as One. This is based on the belief in the essential oneness of all deities, the unity of Godhead, the one divine power, Brahman. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanmata
Panchayatana puja is a system of worship ('puja') in the Smarta tradition of Hinduism. It consists of the worship of five deities set in a quincunx pattern, the five deities being Shiva, Vishnu, Devi or Durga, Surya and an Ishta Devata such as Ganesha or Skanda or any personal god of devotee's preference. Sometimes the Ishta Devata is the sixth deity in the mandala. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panchayatana_puja
Shanmata meaning "Six Religions" in Sanskrit, has its origins in the hoary past. While these Six Religions of Vedic Culture initially had separate followers, theologian Adi Shankara, the 8th century CE Hindu philosopher, worked to join the adherents of the Six Religions into one through spreading his Advaita Vedanta philosophy. Adi Sankara's followers worship all It centers around the worship of the Six of the supreme Deities of the Vedic eligion, Shiva, Vishnu, Shakti, Ganesha, Surya and Skanda as One. This is based on the belief in the essential oneness of all deities, the unity of Godhead, the one divine power, Brahman. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanmata
I'm in a universalist space with all, that's the general tradition I've always been in, and this is totally there. Bhakti to saguna Brahman (God/the Absolute with attributes) is absolutely a path to liberation. No question.
And I am very much primarily a Shiva devotee myself. Although Murugan is also very special to me. And Mother.
Shaiva Siddhanta is cool though. I especially respect Yogaswami of Jaffna and his lineage. Of course he was a big supporter of the Ramakrishna Mission - if people wanted to become monks among his devotees, he'd point them in that direction. And he did what many great teachers do and taught Christians from the Bible, Muslims from the Qur'an, Buddhists from the Dhammapada etc, while primarily catering towars the Shaivas of his tradition.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
User 14, we have a special term for Hindus like myself, who are not much bothered about lineages or scriptures, and venerate all Hindu Gods and Goddesses. We like (happily and proudly) to be termed as 'village Hindus', in the meaning of 'Pagans' or 'heathen'. There are a few 'village Hindus' in the forum other than myself.
"The term pagan is from Late Latin paganus, revived during the Renaissance. Itself deriving from classical Latin pagus which originally meant 'region delimited by markers', paganus had also come to mean 'of or relating to the countryside', 'country dweller', 'villager'; by extension, 'rustic', 'unlearned', 'yokel', 'bumpkin'; in Roman military jargon, 'non-combatant', 'civilian', 'unskilled soldier'. It is related to pangere ('to fasten', 'to fix or affix') and ultimately comes from Proto-Indo-European *pag- ('to fix' in the same sense)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism
By the way 'Murugan' is the same as 'Kartikeya' or 'Skanda' mentioned by Kirran in the post above. Vinayaka also is a 'Murugan' worshiper. 'Murugan' in North India is considered the elder son of Lord Shiva and in South India, the younger one. Ganesha being the other son. That perhaps you know already. Like Ganesha's two wives, Riddhi and Siddhi; Murugan also has two wives, Devasena and Valli - One belonging to the North India, being the daughter of the Aryan God Indra; and the other from South India.
"The term pagan is from Late Latin paganus, revived during the Renaissance. Itself deriving from classical Latin pagus which originally meant 'region delimited by markers', paganus had also come to mean 'of or relating to the countryside', 'country dweller', 'villager'; by extension, 'rustic', 'unlearned', 'yokel', 'bumpkin'; in Roman military jargon, 'non-combatant', 'civilian', 'unskilled soldier'. It is related to pangere ('to fasten', 'to fix or affix') and ultimately comes from Proto-Indo-European *pag- ('to fix' in the same sense)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism
By the way 'Murugan' is the same as 'Kartikeya' or 'Skanda' mentioned by Kirran in the post above. Vinayaka also is a 'Murugan' worshiper. 'Murugan' in North India is considered the elder son of Lord Shiva and in South India, the younger one. Ganesha being the other son. That perhaps you know already. Like Ganesha's two wives, Riddhi and Siddhi; Murugan also has two wives, Devasena and Valli - One belonging to the North India, being the daughter of the Aryan God Indra; and the other from South India.
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I don't think you'd ever be imposing. I've been to the temple here that has the traditional Smarta set-up, and feel very welcomed. Besides that, most traditional Smartas do their really serious stuff at home.
I'm monistic Saiva Siddhanta, and you are correct. Not much emphasis on Puranas, but really not all that much emphasis on scripture period. Its more of a living tradition, where the living Guru's words are the individualized scripture, so to speak. But the common devotee not attached to a Guru lineage is mostly just a bhaktar with no scripture at all, just as the Nayanars were.
The other thing I should mention is that temples often fit everyone, so the individual can be of whatever sect or mindset. and still do his thing. This is especially true of the non-congregational South style temples. At the one I attend we get a smattering of people from all over India and elsewhere. They come for the sannidhya (feeling of God's presence) not the philosophy. So if you can find a temple like that to go to, you can THINK about it any way you personally wish.
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
"Another pattern associates him with the concepts of Buddhi (intellect), Siddhi (spiritual power), and Riddhi (prosperity); these qualities are sometimes personified as goddesses, said to be Ganesha's wives. .. The Shiva Purana says that Ganesha had begotten two sons: Kşema (prosperity) and Lābha (profit). In northern Indian variants of this story, the sons are often said to be Śubha (auspiciouness) and Lābha." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganesha#Family_and_consorts
Metaphorical mythology.
Also since you are new here, perhaps a little explanation will be helpful - Bhaktar: South Indian word for Bhakta (a devotee); Nayanars: South Indian Shiva-worshiping sages (Shaiva); Alwars (also spelt as azhwars): South Indian Vishnu-worshiping sages (Vaishnava).
Metaphorical mythology.
Also since you are new here, perhaps a little explanation will be helpful - Bhaktar: South Indian word for Bhakta (a devotee); Nayanars: South Indian Shiva-worshiping sages (Shaiva); Alwars (also spelt as azhwars): South Indian Vishnu-worshiping sages (Vaishnava).
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It doesn't have to. There's a trap that new adopters of Hinduism can fall into. It's the trap of thinking one needs to explore and adopt virtually every practice, deity and philosophy Hinduism has to offer. It can lead to what's called "analysis paralysis". Analysis paralysis or paralysis by analysis is the state of over-analyzing (or over-thinking) a situation so that a decision or action is never taken, in effect paralyzing the outcome. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis It's something I'm very prone to, as are many "converts", so I know whence I speak. Over time, as the novelty of learning wore off, and I became overwhelmed, it has diminished.
Verses 18.65-66 of the Bhagavad Gita say Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend. Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear. Some translations substitute dharma for religion. I think dharma (way, path) is a better translation, especially since that's the original Sanskrit. Not everyone follows the Bhagavad Gita but you'll find this endorsement and sanctioning of simple bhakti across all sects.
User14
Member
That's definitely true! It's difficult to suppress the urge to over-analyze, but it certainly is counter-productive. There's also an urgent desire to find labels to describe yourself, and not feeling comfortable until you've found them. I've read converts who write about that as well.
Thanks for the responses. Right now I'm mostly just reading the Vedas and devotional poetry, occasionally philosophy. I just hope that when I arrive at the point of study where Hinduism starts to branch off into different lineages and sub-sects, I have some idea of which to focus on. The dream would be a Shiva/Shakti tradition that is primarily or at least significantly colored by bhakti and personal devotion, but I don't know yet whether that exists in a living form.
Humans love labels and categories. My theory is that's how our brains are wired. Without such organization, I think language (grammar) would be impossible. Anyway, technically I could be labeled Vaishnava because my ishta-devata is Vishnu as Krishna. But when it comes right down to it Vishnu is primus inter pares, first among equals. I include a number of gods and goddesses in my worship and veneration. The temple I go to is south Indian style and has a deity for just about everyone. I visit all their sanctums and shrines, even though 7 or 8 of them may be various forms of Vishnu, and another 5 or 6 may be forms of Devi. I look at it this way... when we look at family photos we don't only look at one picture of our parents. We have different photos showing them in different clothing, activities, etc. So technically I don't have a "standard" label.
I like this word " emotional devotion" , does that imply love and remembrance of Shiv , then this at the heart of the Brahmakumari Faith , but it isn't a traditional group , it is comparatively new ( 80 years ) , but claims to deliver the original understanding of " Santana Dharma" , 'The eternal religion' and is based on the knowledge from what the BrahmaKumaris consider to be from Almighty God or Shiv , who they very fondly refer to as Shiv Baba.
According to this faith the Supreme Soul is incorporeal Shiv and all the other souls are His Parvatis , and all the souls which help Him accomplish His task of changing Humans to Deities are His Shaktas.
And His task is to relive all Souls from the burden of all bodily and material attachments, which have become fetters and a cause for sorrow , pain and disappointment.
These shackles are broken through His remembrance and soul consciousness , wherein the soul learns to break free from all bondages and fly light and high, and learns to fulfill all responsibilities without feeling the burden of it , accepts and understands diversity at the same time realizing the similarities in the needs of all souls , in their relationship amongst each other as brothers and their commonality in their relationship with the Father soul.
I would also like to mention here that main stream Hindus consider this to be a cult group.
If this complies with your understanding and quest , tag me for further elaboration.
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Emotional Devotion is a prominent type of Bhakti in Shaktism and indeed all of Hinduism. I'm told that one will often find it in vernacular Shakta poetry. Love, the sincere love one shows for a mother or even a daughter (depending on your view) is often considered essential in one's approach to Shakti. Even their "fierce" aspects. The relationship between a devotee and Shakti is supposed to be that of a child approaching a loving mother.
I find it interesting to note that Shaktism as a branch (particularly Kalikula) sees "Brahmanism" as too old fashioned and not focused enough on the experiential nature of religion. One should not just worship Kali or Durga or Saraswati or Pavati, one should experience the energy of that devotion and embrace it (if one can!) Religion should not be based on books or chants, but on life and what that can throw at you.
I wish I could be more informative in regards to scripture, lineages and traditions. But like Uncle Aup, I am a "Village Hindu" and my family largely ignores it in favor of following familial tradition instead.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
That was OK for Mr. Lekhraj Kripalani who had eight Parvatis. Which Shiva would not like to have eight Parvatis? Goel Ratzon in Israel had 32, Joseph Smith had 40.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult#Polygamist_cults
User14
Member
Vernacular devotional poetry to the Goddess is the best. Yes, it is definitely filled with love for her, in several different moods. I like Ramprasad Sen and the tradition he inspired in Bengal. I also love the Abhirami Andhathi. It focuses more on the benevolent aspect of Parvati since it comes from the South:
http://www.appusami.com/HTML/htmlv101/main/abirami_anthathi english.asp
Shaktism that focuses primarily on this kind of simple devotional attitude- and not so much on tantric practices (either right or left hand), kundalini, awakening shakti or power within yourself, etc.- would be what would appeal to me the most. But as far as specific lineages or traditions go, I don't know if there are any within Shaktism that are like that. As far as I've been able to tell, there are only two sub-sects or branches of organized, sectarian Shaktism- Sri Vidya and Kalikula, both of which seem pretty thoroughly tantric and esoteric.
Not all Shaktism is Tantric, the same way not all Christians are Catholic. It just so happens that those two aspect are the most well known. Also take note of the insistence on the experiential. By default the path seeks to explore the human experience through meditation, other senses and other states of being. Usually produced through a number of "controversial" techniques. So the focus on Tantra is probably given more prominence, making it hard to find sects that reject such things, at least in Shaktism.
But there are literally millions of possibilities in Hinduism, it might take you a little while to find that, or start your own pondering based on Scriptures like the aforementioned Devi Bhagavatam.
Sometimes in Hinduism, to find one's own tribe one has to be a lone wolf for a little bit.